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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"Trump is the only hope for the world. I hope Americans can see this."

1000 replies

crimplepop · 11/09/2024 16:36

KJK going off on one again. Can you see it yet?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
TorghunKhan · 12/09/2024 09:03

Daleksatemyshed · 11/09/2024 17:19

Regardless of anything else I don't understand how anyone can vote for Trump. A man who tries to win a debate by saying immigrants eat people's pets and the Democrats will allow abortions up to 9 months, who incited revolution and rioting at the White House and yet still people want to vote for him , madness

well this is an easy goal.

People vote for him because:

They don't like immigrants
they don't have any opportunities
they have poor education and media training
he promises them change, and actually delivered some
he's not black

Come on - there is a million reasons. you don;t agree with them, but they are pretty clear

Wenzles · 12/09/2024 09:08

Great post @BobsyaRuncle

Beowulfa · 12/09/2024 09:21

Trump is a massive knob, but happens to be right on one key issue.

The Democrats are being massive knobs on this issue.

It's not like KJK is Taylor Swift. I honestly think she is far less relevant than she thinks she is, especially in the US.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 09:26

CassieMaddox · 11/09/2024 19:57

Interesting. I actually did do this a few years ago when he was a candidate in 2016 (after a question on "Any Questions) and my conclusion was he did have tendencies, after reading this

https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html

Not seen anything that's changed my mind

I would agree with Umberto Eco. But bear in mind his definition of 'middle class' is different from the US definition, which is 'blue collar' from a European perspective i.e. the upper working classes - these were the people Hilary Clinton called the 'deplorables', which almost certainly lost her the election.
You will find many of Umberto Eco's points among left-wing thinkers also - or their reverse e.g. a rejection of tradition as 'irrelevant' and (along with fascists such as Mussolini) the embracing of progressive educational styles.

Trump is appealing to the classes Europe would call working-class, to the gillete jaunes, to those who support either AfD (nasty lot) or the left-wing German parties which are socially conservative (i.e. they believe in family and tradition) whilst supporting social democratic/socialist economics (e.g.nationalization of utilities etc.). The US middle-classes (European professional classes) seem mostly to be Democrats.

HappydaysArehere · 12/09/2024 09:26

Daleksatemyshed · 11/09/2024 17:19

Regardless of anything else I don't understand how anyone can vote for Trump. A man who tries to win a debate by saying immigrants eat people's pets and the Democrats will allow abortions up to 9 months, who incited revolution and rioting at the White House and yet still people want to vote for him , madness

I can’t understand it either. My first thought was if he believed this rubbish he must need medical treatment.

Lovelyview · 12/09/2024 09:29

RayonSunrise · 12/09/2024 08:37

I can't believe it's been forgotten here already, but there have been A LOT of threads going after other GC feminists for not supporting EVERYTHING KJK does. Lots of sneering about head girls, comments about how not agreeing with KJK makes you a Wokist, etc etc.

The "so what" is that a new tribalism emerged, where it was heterodox to disagree with (insert lefty/centerist here) but Woke to disagree with KJK.

If that lunacy has ended I'd be delighted, but I am a bit sceptical it's actually ended.

I think you might be forgetting that people are always finding their way onto this board so it's not a static set of people having the same arguments over and over again. It must be interesting to have been around for a long time and seen how much things have changed. I haven't so the discussions are new to me.

dropoutin · 12/09/2024 09:32

Lovelyview · 12/09/2024 08:23

It's an interesting point. I think a lot of lefties - I count myself as one - have been horrified by how dissent has been closed down on the left. There has been a feeling that if you don't agree with everything 'progressive' then you are somehow making the left weak. It has been really interesting to find myself aligned with people I don't agree with on other issues. Riley Gaines is doing excellent work fighting men in women's sports - she is a massive Trump supporter. I'm not going to dismiss her point of view on sport because I don't agree with her politics.

Fair enough. We each decide where to draw our own personal line. As per exchanges upthread I have stronger feeling than some others do about just what a danger Trump is, and the extent to which he's more than just normal political debate about how right or left government policies should be on various issues. This is more of a fundamental question about what government means in the first place; where it gets its authority from.

I don't believe KJK, or most of the people who accept Trump as a supposedly valid part of democratic debate, are actually evil-minded signed up Fascists. I think they're just historically ignorant and politically naive. They might be vaguely aware, if at all, about what happened in Europe in the 1930s but see it as a part of history like the plague or the Roman empire, completely divorced from current circumstances. The liberal democratic west enjoyed such a long period of relative peace and stability after WW2 (not such much the other countries that we outsourced our requirements for chaos and exploitation to), that people have come to view liberal democracy as just the natural state of things and seem to have no concept of how fragile it actually is. Even when someone like Trump OPENLY threatens it they just look the other way or don't have the background knowledge to process what's going on.

I wonder how many of the non-white people that Trump is vilifying at pet-eating rapists have been won over to the GC cause by KJK's endorsement of him.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 09:35

It's a variation on Poles fishing in English rivers - coarse fishing - and eating the fish rather than throwing them back after weighing them. Also of immigrants eating swans. Late DH said seagull was the worst he had eaten - tasted like fish, not in a good way - but swans were reared to be eaten, though generally we don't any more in the UK.

Some places in the world routinely eat dogs (e.g. China) - so suggesting newcomers might do this is not unfeasible. Even European ideas on what you eat vary. Remember the horsemeat scandal, where burgers were cut with horsemeat? It was not so much that what was supposedly beef was cut with another meat (bad enough), but that the meat was HORSE, which the British have on the same list of 'we don't eat ever, ever' meats, along with dog and cat (and insects).
That said, that immigrants from cultures where dogs, cats, horses are eaten continue this practice is not unbelievable.
So I don't think that Trump believing this (if he does) suggests anything about his mental health. It does suggest that USians don't eat cats and dogs (in normal times) and that it is a taboo against doing so.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 09:38

dropoutin · 12/09/2024 09:32

Fair enough. We each decide where to draw our own personal line. As per exchanges upthread I have stronger feeling than some others do about just what a danger Trump is, and the extent to which he's more than just normal political debate about how right or left government policies should be on various issues. This is more of a fundamental question about what government means in the first place; where it gets its authority from.

I don't believe KJK, or most of the people who accept Trump as a supposedly valid part of democratic debate, are actually evil-minded signed up Fascists. I think they're just historically ignorant and politically naive. They might be vaguely aware, if at all, about what happened in Europe in the 1930s but see it as a part of history like the plague or the Roman empire, completely divorced from current circumstances. The liberal democratic west enjoyed such a long period of relative peace and stability after WW2 (not such much the other countries that we outsourced our requirements for chaos and exploitation to), that people have come to view liberal democracy as just the natural state of things and seem to have no concept of how fragile it actually is. Even when someone like Trump OPENLY threatens it they just look the other way or don't have the background knowledge to process what's going on.

I wonder how many of the non-white people that Trump is vilifying at pet-eating rapists have been won over to the GC cause by KJK's endorsement of him.

Surprised if people think either plague (we've recently had one) or the Roman Empire (Renaissance change to women's rights stems from the 'new learning' from Rome, and much European law is based on Roman law) are now irrelevant. They are not.

Realduchymarmalade · 12/09/2024 09:42

Calling Trump a fascist is foolish in the extreme. I think people express this opinion because they think it sounds informed or profound somehow, but its actually quite the opposite. Embarrssing for them. Try picking up a history book.

TheRavenSaid · 12/09/2024 09:43

So you would be happy with a convicted criminal in the white house? With the 'grab her by the pussy' orange man?

With a man who reportedly said (28 Jun 2023) “Aides said he talked about Ivanka Trump's breasts, her backside, and what it might be like to have sex with her

You would be happy with that?

CassieMaddox · 12/09/2024 09:44

TinselAngel · 12/09/2024 07:57

13th rule of misogyny: Angry women are crazy. Angry men have trouble expressing themselves.

Bit strong to call what I said "misogyny"
Women are people. It's not unreasonable to question what's behind someone behaving in an erratic way.

CassieMaddox · 12/09/2024 09:46

S0CKPUPPET · 12/09/2024 07:59

No I think it’s probably the mythical international group of powerful lesbians 🙄

KJK really REALLY upsets the TRAs , doesn’t she ? Almost every week there’s another one of these threads trying to trash her and lecturing us GC peeps on why we can’t POSSIBLY agree with anything she says unless we agree with EVERYTHING she says.

I am GC and so are many others who disagree with her about supporting Trump.

Trump is a misogynist sex offender. I would assume most feminists dislike that.

CassieMaddox · 12/09/2024 09:47

dropoutin · 12/09/2024 08:03

KJK doesn't "fill my mind" or "live rent-free in my head" at all. She's just a fairly unintelligent but opinionated chancer who has latched onto the GC movement as a vehicle for self promotion, even if it means supporting a climate-denying misogynist fascist in his project to set human development back by several hundred years.

I have as much right to voice that opinion when the subject comes up, as those who think all those things are great have to voice theirs. Then I go and do something else.

Well said

CrochetForLife · 12/09/2024 09:47

Realduchymarmalade · 12/09/2024 09:42

Calling Trump a fascist is foolish in the extreme. I think people express this opinion because they think it sounds informed or profound somehow, but its actually quite the opposite. Embarrssing for them. Try picking up a history book.

Sorry but if you don't see that Trump is a fascist and see the warning signs of 1930s Europe in him, you are the one that is foolish indeed.

Please pick up a history book.

It's not about not agreeing with him. Or even not liking him. Or even being politically partisan and tribal. Or, wanting to look 'informed'. It's that those of us who studied history earnestly can see the parallels. You, are simply not paying attention. The way Hitler rose to power, is people simply did not pay attention to what he said. Not just hints. But things he said over period of time.

You are making the exact same mistake.

You better hope he isn't elected because I promise you, I promise you, history WILL repeat. Sadly. If it does, you'd best remember this thread and your naive head in the sand denials.

AlisonDonut · 12/09/2024 09:47

CrochetForLife · 12/09/2024 09:01

As Martina says it, it's about the balance. Not one issue alone. Womens rights to abortion, to not have our menstrual schedules checked or our medical records checked if a woman goes interstate for a few days if it's suspected she's going for an abortion, removal of no fault divorce, removing contraception - all things that Agenda 2025 wants to instigate. Trump is an evil and dangerous dictator, and Germany in the 1940s should still be in people's memories. But so many just cannot see it. That that's what he represents. If Trump gets in, there won't be any more elections for a long while, if ever. It's clear he intends to install a type of Military Junta dictatorship. To anyone paying any attention, this is clear. He is the single most dangerous man in the world since 1930s-1940s Germany. And people are not paying attention and just can't see it! Martina believes Harris doesn't understand the issue and can be brought around. But the loss of medicare, divorce rights (that would trap a woman in a relationship with her abuser), abortion rights, contraception rights, etc. On balance, it's a no-brainer. For women's sake, Harris must win. Or else all women, and girls, are stuffed if Trump gets in.

Edited

Not one side has ever actually sorted out the abortion issue have they?

If you think Harris is on the side of women and girls when that women and girls includes men and boys, that isn't really going to help women and girls is it?

As I said, America is fucked either way.

BobsyaRuncle · 12/09/2024 09:48

CassieMaddox · 12/09/2024 09:44

Bit strong to call what I said "misogyny"
Women are people. It's not unreasonable to question what's behind someone behaving in an erratic way.

No, but it isn't a constructive critique of KJK to suggest that this is an aberration due to some mental health issue, of which there isn't any any evidence.
The points made in critique of her stated views are strong enough. Casting doubt on her mental fitness is a trope that only distracts from the substance of it, and allows those who wish to sidestep it to do so.

poppymango · 12/09/2024 09:51

See what? The people holding up right wing GCs as though they represent the whole movement, willfully ignoring the thousands of lifelong lefties who have been fighting this nonsense for years?

Yes, we see it. It's exhausting.

capitanaamerica · 12/09/2024 09:55

I can see why if knocking trans activism on the head is the only thing you care about then Trump is your only option in America.

In the US, it won't be effectively knocked on its head from the top down. In 2016, some people on the left thought that a Trump/Republican Presidency would be a respite and give feminists (and others) four years to get the word out about what's going on - but even then it was evident that these issues need to be tackled from the grassroots on up. That requires a critical mass of regular people to take them seriously.

Trump's effectively undermining that goal. For example, his claim in Tuesday's debate that Kamala Harris "wants to do transgender operations on illegal aliens that are in prison" just reinforces the belief - already pushed hard by US media - that there's no reasonable critique of extremist genderism and any issues raised can just be dismissed as misinformed / conspiracy-theory-fueled / ill-intentioned fuss over nothing. He has put reasonable and important concerns about (1) men in women's prisons (2) irreversible elective surgery on children and other vulnerable people and (3) government subsidies for "feminization" of prisoners (when the corresponding needs of women go unmet) in the same category as the concern that foreigners will eat your house pets and the belief that dousing yourself with bleach cures COVID-19.

As for KJK, she's entitled to express an opinion in the US election, just as Tony Abbott opined on Scottish Independence and Donald Trump himself on Brexit. But I doubt many actual US voters are gonna spend time searching it out - even the OP, who raised the subject in the first place, can't produce a link or quote!

CassieMaddox · 12/09/2024 09:56

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 09:26

I would agree with Umberto Eco. But bear in mind his definition of 'middle class' is different from the US definition, which is 'blue collar' from a European perspective i.e. the upper working classes - these were the people Hilary Clinton called the 'deplorables', which almost certainly lost her the election.
You will find many of Umberto Eco's points among left-wing thinkers also - or their reverse e.g. a rejection of tradition as 'irrelevant' and (along with fascists such as Mussolini) the embracing of progressive educational styles.

Trump is appealing to the classes Europe would call working-class, to the gillete jaunes, to those who support either AfD (nasty lot) or the left-wing German parties which are socially conservative (i.e. they believe in family and tradition) whilst supporting social democratic/socialist economics (e.g.nationalization of utilities etc.). The US middle-classes (European professional classes) seem mostly to be Democrats.

Yes. But your original point was Trump clearly isn't fascist. I think he is.

We've discussed before I think, that some of these tendencies also manifest on the Left. That's true, but none of the left wing politicians are anywhere close to holding a seat of power. Trump on the other hand is. He is dangerous and its a dangerous situation for the world.

Hand waving it away because one can't stand the thought of a left wing government is understandable but also what he is counting on to win. If he did win, and he did turn into the Dictator he says he will, then people who glossed over his tendencies and voted for him or people who outright supported him and encouraged votes are complicit.

As pp said, WWII still looms large and so I think a lot of people are fearful of what he could be and oppose him on that basis. Writing them all off as lefties is naive.

CassieMaddox · 12/09/2024 09:59

AlisonDonut · 12/09/2024 09:47

Not one side has ever actually sorted out the abortion issue have they?

If you think Harris is on the side of women and girls when that women and girls includes men and boys, that isn't really going to help women and girls is it?

As I said, America is fucked either way.

Men and boys will never need an abortion, regardless of how they identify.

People voting for a party that will ban abortion are voting for a measure that will cause tangible harm to women and girls. It already is. See the tweet linked upthread.

You do you, but don't pretend those of us that would prioritise safe abortion are "anti women and girls".

BobsyaRuncle · 12/09/2024 10:01

Lovelyview · 12/09/2024 09:00

That's a really interesting point. Would you just ignore Riley Gaines too? I'm just not sure that accepting the left's 'terms' of engagement (that we shouldn't listen to anyone right wing) strengthens the gender critical position.

It's not really about listening. I'll listen to anyone and assess what they say based on context and so on. Sport really isn't my area of interest so I'm not overly familiar with Gaines. I've learned to exercise caution about people being platformed, wherever they come from in the wider debate, tbh. Most of the positive things I've seen have been well away from the heat & friction of online debate and just in building relationships with people one on one. IMO, The celebritisation of the discourse has led to most of the really counterproductive nonsense from any of the viewpoints, tbh. Most people are just trying to make ends meet and get on with their lives.

CrochetForLife · 12/09/2024 10:02

capitanaamerica · 12/09/2024 09:55

I can see why if knocking trans activism on the head is the only thing you care about then Trump is your only option in America.

In the US, it won't be effectively knocked on its head from the top down. In 2016, some people on the left thought that a Trump/Republican Presidency would be a respite and give feminists (and others) four years to get the word out about what's going on - but even then it was evident that these issues need to be tackled from the grassroots on up. That requires a critical mass of regular people to take them seriously.

Trump's effectively undermining that goal. For example, his claim in Tuesday's debate that Kamala Harris "wants to do transgender operations on illegal aliens that are in prison" just reinforces the belief - already pushed hard by US media - that there's no reasonable critique of extremist genderism and any issues raised can just be dismissed as misinformed / conspiracy-theory-fueled / ill-intentioned fuss over nothing. He has put reasonable and important concerns about (1) men in women's prisons (2) irreversible elective surgery on children and other vulnerable people and (3) government subsidies for "feminization" of prisoners (when the corresponding needs of women go unmet) in the same category as the concern that foreigners will eat your house pets and the belief that dousing yourself with bleach cures COVID-19.

As for KJK, she's entitled to express an opinion in the US election, just as Tony Abbott opined on Scottish Independence and Donald Trump himself on Brexit. But I doubt many actual US voters are gonna spend time searching it out - even the OP, who raised the subject in the first place, can't produce a link or quote!

For example, his claim in Tuesday's debate that Kamala Harris "wants to do transgender operations on illegal aliens that are in prison" just reinforces the belief - already pushed hard by US media - that there's no reasonable critique of extremist genderism and any issues raised can just be dismissed as misinformed / conspiracy-theory-fueled / ill-intentioned fuss over nothing. He has put reasonable and important concerns about (1) men in women's prisons (2) irreversible elective surgery on children and other vulnerable people and (3) government subsidies for "feminization" of prisoners (when the corresponding needs of women go unmet) in the same category as the concern that foreigners will eat your house pets and the belief that dousing yourself with bleach cures COVID-19.

This is a very good point! Trump makes us look so bad. He may reverse Title IX for sports, but apart from that, what else can he do? Especially when it's state-by-state issues. People listen to him on transgender and think that that is how we all think. He is a hindrance to us, not a help.

CassieMaddox · 12/09/2024 10:07

BobsyaRuncle · 12/09/2024 09:48

No, but it isn't a constructive critique of KJK to suggest that this is an aberration due to some mental health issue, of which there isn't any any evidence.
The points made in critique of her stated views are strong enough. Casting doubt on her mental fitness is a trope that only distracts from the substance of it, and allows those who wish to sidestep it to do so.

I've been following her for a while and the very pro-Trump content of the last couple of days is out of character even for her.

If its not financially motivated I'm unsure why she's being so fervent, especially given she's a UK citizen.

Also her extremely emotive language about child mutilation/pimps etc. It's not "being honest". It's being totally OTT.

To my mind she's either cynically driving the clickbait machine by latching onto Trump as the latest divisive topic and seeking RTs. In that case as Eastern says we are all part of the problem by amplifying her.

Or she's genuinely anxious about "child mutilation" and the risk from Harris, so much so that she'll overlook the fact that Trump is a misogynist sex offender who has said he wants to be a dictator, and who has policies that are harmful to women and girls. Anxious enough to spend a lot of time and £££ flying to the States and posting fervently on X about politics in a different country.

In which case I think her anxiety is disproportionate to the risk and suggestive of a mental health condition.

Is there another option and I'm being blinkered? Because I really can't see it.

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