Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Huge argument with best friend about the boxers. Devestated.

321 replies

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 12:14

My best friend of 30 years has called me stupid, cruel, a fucking terf, a numpty, and an idealogical bigot. He also said he hopes my 7 year old daughter doesn't end up with XY chromosomes and I have to tell her she wasn't a real woman. Who does that?
I'm so so so upset. I went through my points clearly and calmly. I pointed him in the direction of Andrew Gold's interview with a developmental biologist. I said she made all the points much much better than I could.
I said I didn't really know what the situation was with this particular boxer because nobody could seem to agree. My only point was that if she is XY and went through male puberty, then some sort of policy should be in place. I also said that it wasn't fair for her to be in the limelight like this and that basically, it needs sorting at an administrative level.
The vitriol from him has really shocked me. I'm in tears. He's talking about my cruelty to this boxer (who he says was born and raised a woman and it doesn't matter about the chromosomes and would I also stop basketball players from growing too tall) whilst also being extraordinarily nasty to me.
Now I'm wondering if I've got this wrong.
The reason I have gender-critical views is because I want to protect my daughter. But I'm pretty isolated, on my own... and now I'm really really sad.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 10/08/2024 16:53

lonelywater · 10/08/2024 16:35

this whole shit show is like a real time version of invasion of the bodysnatchers. People you thought you knew, liked and respected show them selves to be utter mentalists regarding gender woo. Its not nice but at least you know this chap goes in the bin along with all the other nutters.

Yep, I've had very similar with someone I considered a good friend for over 40 years, it was like he was taken over by aliens or something. The scales suddenly fell from my eyes and I realised that, actually, he's always been a bit of an arse but is now a total arse. I no longer consider him a friend.

It really got going a couple of years ago when me, DH and this guy met up for a day and got talking about GC stuff. He said 'I think I know what it's all about' and then to our astonishment he said 'It's in your head, it's in your heart, it's what you wear'. That was the moment everything changed.

Don't put up with it, OP!

Scentedjasmin · 10/08/2024 16:56

I have enormous sympathy for the female boxer, who has been targeted due to the trans backlash. She was born intersex. She has female reproductive organs but a gene mutation, I believe. And I do also see the logic of other arguments re Michael Phelps, just as I see the difficulties in fighting opponents with more testosterone. My understanding was that this could have been resolved with hormone therapy to bring down the testosterone levels. Either way, that poor lady, has been through the mill and it's not been fair on her opponents. The sports industry needs to get to grips with the issue. However, were it not for Trans 'women' unfairly competing in female sports and the subsequent backlash, this lady probably wouldn't have been in the news.
It's also ironic though that your male friend thinks it fine to shout you down, intimidate and upset you like that! Men are behind all of this mess. Women do not need to be intimidated, gaslit or told that they are bigots any longer by men! If it's not for you and JK Rowling to decide what a woman is, then it's certainly not up to angry man with no experience of having been a woman, just because he has a louder more aggressive voice. He's no friend.

CatherineofAmazon · 10/08/2024 16:59

Aside from the argument situation you seem to have some inexplicable deep connection to the bloke who appears to be a nasty bastard who feels like he can neg you all he wants and you should just put up with it (as you have done apparently for a very long time)
What sort of ‘best friend’ would put you down so nastily by saying he couldn’t marry you because you’re fat etc. And say horrible things about your daughter.
Your Sister is right. He’s a horrible person.
Don’t bother with him ever again. He doesn’t deserve your loyalty or friendship.

KnitFastDieWarm · 10/08/2024 17:01

letsjustdothis · 10/08/2024 13:06

I agree with your friend and I'm a woman.

I think anyone who thinks otherwise is very old fashioned.

The next generation are all going to be embarrassed that you had these views, in the same way you're embarrassed that your grandparents' generation were homophobic.

The world is moving on, deal with it.

Edited

I’m sure people said this about the PIE et al in the 70s, too. Just because an idea is novel, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. Progress is not automatically ‘this new thing is better than the old thing’ - we need to engage more in critical thinking.

I have immense sympathy for anyone who grows up believing they are female and discovers at puberty that they are male. But their feelings are not more important than women’s physical safety.

KnitFastDieWarm · 10/08/2024 17:03

also @Patty78 your ‘friend’ is just another Left Wing Misogynist Bloke (tm). There’s a lot of them about. They think women are all very nice and equal as long as we’re praising them for how very feminist and marvellous they are - until we disagree with them or fail to centre their views, and then suddenly we become bigoted harridans 🙄

CorruptedCauldron · 10/08/2024 17:10

Sharron Davies shared this chart on X showing just how binary DSDs are. If a boxer has the 5-ARD type, as suspected in this case, they’re a biological male.

Your friend sounds like an awful bigot. If he can’t simply agree to disagree, and be respectful towards you, he’s not worth your time. Bringing your daughter into the argument was despicable. I bet he wouldn’t be too keen on his daughters having to fight an opponent who has male biology.

Also, the fat shaming. WTF?! Seriously, kick that loser to the kerb!

Huge argument with best friend about the boxers. Devestated.
Trikey · 10/08/2024 17:11

letsjustdothis · 10/08/2024 13:06

I agree with your friend and I'm a woman.

I think anyone who thinks otherwise is very old fashioned.

The next generation are all going to be embarrassed that you had these views, in the same way you're embarrassed that your grandparents' generation were homophobic.

The world is moving on, deal with it.

Edited

Have the next generation learned how to re-invent human biology then?

Don't be ridiculous.

OP - your 'friend' is thick. And hates women.

I wish all the people who don't understand these issues would watch the Sex Matters briefing linked to previously. It is excellent.

PatatiPatatras · 10/08/2024 17:11

Scentedjasmin · 10/08/2024 16:56

I have enormous sympathy for the female boxer, who has been targeted due to the trans backlash. She was born intersex. She has female reproductive organs but a gene mutation, I believe. And I do also see the logic of other arguments re Michael Phelps, just as I see the difficulties in fighting opponents with more testosterone. My understanding was that this could have been resolved with hormone therapy to bring down the testosterone levels. Either way, that poor lady, has been through the mill and it's not been fair on her opponents. The sports industry needs to get to grips with the issue. However, were it not for Trans 'women' unfairly competing in female sports and the subsequent backlash, this lady probably wouldn't have been in the news.
It's also ironic though that your male friend thinks it fine to shout you down, intimidate and upset you like that! Men are behind all of this mess. Women do not need to be intimidated, gaslit or told that they are bigots any longer by men! If it's not for you and JK Rowling to decide what a woman is, then it's certainly not up to angry man with no experience of having been a woman, just because he has a louder more aggressive voice. He's no friend.

You do not know that this boxer has female reproductive organs. You believe it.
How people are so willing to believe this instead of the more obvious inverted micro penis is beyond me.

There is a higher chance of this individual having internal testes than a uterus. Much much higher.

The marketing campaign that led people to believe the opposite should be a master class.

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 17:13

My ex is one of these gender-spouting wokebros too. (That's not why I left, we split up before gender ideology fully kicked off, but there was a chauvinism and right-on-ness that definitely ties in...) One of the ways he displays his righteousness is by sucking up to the transmen he knows (he's in academia so there are quite a few) and trying to be super-welcoming and "you're one of the lads" to them. I've seen these interactions on social media and with a family member and the funny thing is how completely he treats these TM as he treats other females. Patronising, a bit flirtatious, plays Mr Nice Guy but doesn't really listen to or respect them. His persona when he's around males is completely different. But he can't see it. He's fully convinced himself that he "really thinks" TMAM and TWAW - but he really doesn't.

He's not a bad person. He actually does his best as a dad and co-parent and is a genuinely good friend to many. But what I see is that these lefty men care more about their image and being on the social justice bandwagon and getting the "you're so lovely and progressive" brownie points, than they do about anything else. The fact that genderism is a deeply sexist and women's-rights-reversing movement makes it so much more appealing and a natural fit for them, but I think that's often on a subconscious or suppressed level. The powerful belief that they are morally righteous for being an ally shrouds the ability to question how any of it makes sense.

dementedpixie · 10/08/2024 17:17

@Scentedjasmin its more likely that the boxer had ambiguous genitals that led them to believe he was a girl at birth. Unlikely to have a uterus/ovaries and more likely to have internal testes. These produce testosterone and he went through male puberty. This would be a DSD that only affects males

Justme56 · 10/08/2024 17:18

The fact that he needs ‘his parent’s approval’, says it all really. What a prick. One day the truth will come out as it inevitably does. In the meantime bin him, he’s not worth it.

BlackeyedSusan · 10/08/2024 17:20

AIstolemylunch · 10/08/2024 12:16

Ignore him. He has an agenda. He's not a friend ro you, your daughter or women.

Well he's not kind to you so that makes him a hypocrite too.

Omlettes · 10/08/2024 17:27

rogdmum · 10/08/2024 12:41

I have found it truly jaw dropping just how angry so many men have been about this issue. The number of completely irrational responses has been eye opening.

Resentful guilt.

Omlettes · 10/08/2024 17:31

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:13

Thank you, everyone. Yes, what he said about my daughter was particularly awful. A 7-year-old child. He's got two daughters himself. We had a fallout years ago because I sided with his first wife during their split. He now has a kid with another woman who earns three or four times more than him. Last time I saw him, he said he didn't like it. My sister has always been able to see through his bullshit. She can't believe I still try to maintain this relationship. She won't speak to him. But he's been like a brother to me. We grew up together. Moved abroad together. We were like a team. It was something really special.
It makes me feel like it's not worth fighting for. Being a gender-critical feminist, I mean. Maybe I should just keep my thoughts to myself. I've already had to hide my opinion professionally. I can't lose my already paltry income.

"We had a fallout years ago because I sided with his first wife during their split. He now has a kid with another woman who earns three or four times more than him. Last time I saw him, he said he didn't like it. My sister has always been able to see through his bullshit. She can't believe I still try to maintain this relationship. She won't speak to him. But he's been like a brother to me. We grew up together. Moved abroad together. We were like a team. It was something really special.
It makes me feel like it's not worth fighting for. Being a gender-critical feminist, I mean. '
These paragraphs say it all.
His resentment to women via his wife. Your sisters clear observance
And you are beginning to sound a lot like a doormat.
Where is your backbone darling?

Truthlikeness · 10/08/2024 17:38

I think there is a category of male who resents having been painted as the bad sex in the battle of the sexes, and who latches onto trans MTF and DSD female-identifying as they provide a third category that can be used to knock women off the 'most oppressed' pedestal.

Helleofabore · 10/08/2024 17:40

Scentedjasmin · 10/08/2024 16:56

I have enormous sympathy for the female boxer, who has been targeted due to the trans backlash. She was born intersex. She has female reproductive organs but a gene mutation, I believe. And I do also see the logic of other arguments re Michael Phelps, just as I see the difficulties in fighting opponents with more testosterone. My understanding was that this could have been resolved with hormone therapy to bring down the testosterone levels. Either way, that poor lady, has been through the mill and it's not been fair on her opponents. The sports industry needs to get to grips with the issue. However, were it not for Trans 'women' unfairly competing in female sports and the subsequent backlash, this lady probably wouldn't have been in the news.
It's also ironic though that your male friend thinks it fine to shout you down, intimidate and upset you like that! Men are behind all of this mess. Women do not need to be intimidated, gaslit or told that they are bigots any longer by men! If it's not for you and JK Rowling to decide what a woman is, then it's certainly not up to angry man with no experience of having been a woman, just because he has a louder more aggressive voice. He's no friend.

"My understanding was that this could have been resolved with hormone therapy to bring down the testosterone levels."

Then you have been misinformed if you believe this.

Testosterone suppression will not reverse the advantages that this male has in the ring due to their male puberty. Their long bone length which gives height but also lengthens their reach and gives better leverage for that calculated 160+% punching power on average that male people have over female people. That cannot be reduced. The hip alignment can never be changed and will also give greater stability. The muscle combinations can not be mitigated, there will always be more fast twitch muscles and greater muscle mass. Then there is greater bone mass. These are just the obvious ones off the top of my head.

Combine this with female people's more delicate bone density, particularly on the face and suddenly, you have very dangerous risk of permanent damage due to broken bones with that much more powerful punch.

Then there is the more delicate brain fibres in female brains that mean all those advantages mean greater risk of concussion.

"However, were it not for Trans 'women' unfairly competing in female sports and the subsequent backlash, this lady probably wouldn't have been in the news."

No. Because before the Olympic committee changed the regulations to allow males with gender identities to compete with out having their testes removed allowed the first competitors of that nature to compete in the 2020 Olympics, Semenya and two others took 1st, 2nd and 3rd in the female 800m at Rio in 2016. It was after that that the OIC introduced some very weak regulations around one or two athletic events to force those athletes to reduce their testosterone, which Semenya took to court to overturn in 2019. Giving us the evidence needed to know just which DSD Semenya has and their testosterone levels.

"Men are behind all of this mess. Women do not need to be intimidated, gaslit or told that they are bigots any longer by men!"

This is true. The media needs to stop spreading misinformation and to stop using false logic such as 'the Phelps Gambit' and other competitive advantage fallacies and also to stop ignoring the now well proven science that dropping testosterone levels makes some men 'competitive.

"Either way, that poor lady, has been through the mill and it's not been fair on her opponents."

Do you think that the boxer in question did not understand the meeting they had with the IBA about their disqualification? Do you think that they don't understand that they are male? I suggest that you have a look at the images now being shared on social media with the coach's hand placed on the chest of this boxer. I cannot for a moment believe that either the boxer or the people supporting them at this competition did not understand why they were excluded by the IBA.

nonmerci99 · 10/08/2024 17:42

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 15:36

The world is moving on, deal with it

Do you think the world should also "move on" to make it fine for adults to be recognised as children if they say they are, and allowed on kids sports teams - or for fully able-bodied athletes to be recognised as disabled if they say they are and allowed to win all the paralympics medals? Or for a heavyweight boxer to say they're a bantamweight and be put in that category and win all the medals, and endanger their opponents?

If not why not? These things are all measurably different from each other as are males and females. There are arbitrary cut-off dividing lines which are exclusive and "leave people behind" but it's just tough, categories are categories. Is that old-fashioned and embarrassing and akin to homophobia? If not, why do you apply this to having male and female categories? They are at least as real as the other categories.

Is it just because you've been told what to think and not thought it through?

Edited

nooo take your blasted logic and shove it 😂 All of these are completely different!!! I’m not sure why they are, I just feel they are. Next argument please!

Omlettes · 10/08/2024 17:42

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:27

Proper real friend, "soul-mate" kind of friend. In real life. Lived together.
He always said that I was "the one" and he should have been with me. But I was too fat for him. And, ironically, too leftwing and "wayward" for his parents to accept. Oddly, I never asked. He has been someone I've had some of the best times of my life with, but I never wanted to be with him. He's a CF. Always has been. I've seen him as a brother. He was a part of our family.

Proper real friend, "soul-mate" kind of friend. In real life. Lived together.
He always said that I was "the one" and he should have been with me. But I was too fat for him.

The basis of this relationship.
I think a good therapist might point out that you are outsourcing your anger to us.

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 17:49

I think a good therapist might point out that you are outsourcing your anger to us.

And we're happy to oblige! Grin
That's not a bad thing IMO and an important function of female friends and support networks. Other women get angry on your behalf and help you find your own anger.

Helleofabore · 10/08/2024 17:54

OP, this is for your benefit in case you are wondering why you feel so gaslit. Your friend is not going to listen, but it might help you in sorting out your thoughts if you have not come across the explanation before. If you have come across it, then apologies.

This is why the 'But they didn't win', 'they have been beaten', 'what does it matter,' type arguments really show a complete lack of understanding about competitive advantage.

The male athletes losing are losing because they when you considered their physical advantages, if they were elite level male athletes at the same level of peak performance as the female people that they were losing against, they would not have lost. They are not at any where near the level of exceptionality of the female athletes they are competing against.

In many instances, there performance rates as mediocre when compared to male athlete peak performance.

To be very clear, if the male athletes losing to those exceptional female athletes were as good and as fit and performing at their full potential as those elite athletes, they would have won.

In fact, several male athletes are competing in female events and setting records that female people may never break. Those male athletes are in almost comparable performance level as the exceptional female athletes, but their physical advantage is coming into play, so to speak.

Consider the physical advantage to constitute x% performance advantage over all. To achieve the same level of exceptionality of the female athletes, their performance will = peak female athlete performance + x%. Hence setting records that may not be broken.

If the female athletes are beating the male athletes and those athletes have male pubertal advantage, then they simply are not as good as the female athlete. In fact, if those male athletes with x% pubertal advantage tied with the exceptional female athlete, then by comparison, the female athlete is better.

So this point too is irrelevant for competition. But. Not for safety.

What you are supporting is, in effect, very dangerous for female athletes due to male people have on average 160+% more punch power than female people (that is not athletes, that is just the general population) and many other advantages. In fact, part of the punch power is derived from skeletal leverage that males have to give this power that female people do not have. And bone mass and density that is greater in male people than female people.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33289906/

This above is the review of 13 studies from Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg and it shows these advantages, if anyone wishes to check for themselves.

This also shows that lowering testosterone simply does not remove the advantage gained by any degree of male puberty .

And this is an explanation of meaningful sports competition from philosopher Jon Pike who has a sports speciality.

Meaningful competition by Jon Pike

And referred to in this tweet:

”The argument that Khelif's advantage does not matter because it is 'small' and 'like Michael Phelps's advantages' is false.”

I mean, 'false' as in 'refuted', 'demonstrated to be wrong’.

”Here you go - see particularly pp. 8-15:”

https://x.com/runthinkwrite/status/1819323178973331569

Why ‘Meaningful Competition’ is not fair competition

6th Feb 2023

www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00948705.2023.2167720

ABSTRACT

In this paper I discuss a new conception that has arrived relatively recently on the scene, in the context of the debate over the inclusion of transwomen (hereafter TW) in female sport. That conception is ‘Meaningful Competition’ (hereafter MC) – a term used by some of those who advocate for the inclusion of TW in female sport if and only if they reduce their testosterone levels. I will argue that MC is not fair. I understand MC as a substitute concept, as an attempt to substitute for the perfectly serviceable concept of fair competition. It is an attempt at conceptual engineering that should be resisted. This is important because some International Federations have accepted MC as good coin, and the underlying theory of MC, which I explicate for the first time, underpins the stance taken by the IOC (International Olympic Committee) in its Framework Document. To establish that the inclusion of TW in female sport meets the criteria of MC in the sense I explicate here, does not show that the inclusion of TW in female sport is fair. Such inclusion is not fair, and the proper currency of sport is fair competition. ‘Meaningful Competition’, on the other hand, is a snare and a delusion.


Getting back to that bone density. To be clear. This bone difference means stronger bones!

Female people have been proven to have bones that are more prone to breakage, particularly in the face. And they are more prone to concussion and brain damage due to their more delicate brain fibres. This has been studied and is now shaping Rugby guidelines for female participation, as an example.

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

To those who use the 'but they didn't win' what do you believe will happen to a female with those more delicate bones and brain fibres when hit with punches that are 160+% harder than other female boxers?

A game of women's rugby at Swansea University

Rugby concussion: Swansea University study into protecting women

Research has found women are at a greater risk than men and the effects are more severe.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51434749

MrsWhattery · 10/08/2024 18:00

Also it's not just about winning. Just by being in the women's boxing at the olympics, these males have taken the places of women who would have been there. It's direct sex discrimination, because it doesn't happen to anything like the same extent the other way round. Because of the differences in strength and power between the sexes, males get to oust females from competitions and teams but males do not lose their places to the same extent. Overall, that means across a tournament or a sport, males become over-represented and females are excluded. That also happens at grass roots and amateur level so the girls who would end up being the elite athletes have fewer chances all the way up.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/08/2024 18:05

He is not your friend. If he were, no matter how much he disagreed with you, he would never speak to you that way.
What you said was perfectly reasonable anyway.

He sounds absolutely awful and a bully.
A bully to you, and also a bully who thinks it fine for a male body to beat up a woman.

I am sure that as you look back you’ll see this in other words and behaviour of his.
Please do not doubt yourself. Just finish with him.

Even if your daughter turned out to be a muscular XY boxer with a DSD as the cause - completely shattering her previous identity of herself- I am sure that neither you nor your child would expect that it would be ok for her/him to box against women.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/08/2024 18:13

Patty78 · 10/08/2024 13:27

Proper real friend, "soul-mate" kind of friend. In real life. Lived together.
He always said that I was "the one" and he should have been with me. But I was too fat for him. And, ironically, too leftwing and "wayward" for his parents to accept. Oddly, I never asked. He has been someone I've had some of the best times of my life with, but I never wanted to be with him. He's a CF. Always has been. I've seen him as a brother. He was a part of our family.

But I was too fat for him……. what did he mean by that? How ironic. Was he implying that makes you a not good enough woman?

But an XY “woman” (man?) is a correct sort of woman?

TheKeatingFive · 10/08/2024 18:20

This man sounds like a colossal misogynist OP. I feel like there are plenty of these men amongst lefty progressive types. Nowadays they feel empowered to let their true nature shone though.

JanefromLondon1 · 10/08/2024 18:21

letsjustdothis · 10/08/2024 13:06

I agree with your friend and I'm a woman.

I think anyone who thinks otherwise is very old fashioned.

The next generation are all going to be embarrassed that you had these views, in the same way you're embarrassed that your grandparents' generation were homophobic.

The world is moving on, deal with it.

Edited

There will never be a world where there isn't just 2 sexes and those sexes will never be able to change to be the other one. Sex is immutable.