Huge argument with best friend about the boxers. Devestated.

[Patty78]

My best friend of 30 years has called me stupid, cruel, a fucking terf, a numpty, and an idealogical bigot. He also said he hopes my 7 year old daughter doesn't end up with XY chromosomes and I have to tell her she wasn't a real woman. Who does that?
I'm so so so upset. I went through my points clearly and calmly. I pointed him in the direction of Andrew Gold's interview with a developmental biologist. I said she made all the points much much better than I could.
I said I didn't really know what the situation was with this particular boxer because nobody could seem to agree. My only point was that if she is XY and went through male puberty, then some sort of policy should be in place. I also said that it wasn't fair for her to be in the limelight like this and that basically, it needs sorting at an administrative level.
The vitriol from him has really shocked me. I'm in tears. He's talking about my cruelty to this boxer (who he says was born and raised a woman and it doesn't matter about the chromosomes and would I also stop basketball players from growing too tall) whilst also being extraordinarily nasty to me.
Now I'm wondering if I've got this wrong.
The reason I have gender-critical views is because I want to protect my daughter. But I'm pretty isolated, on my own... and now I'm really really sad.

I won’t derail your thread OP but just to say I’ve been through similar with a friend.

He’s gay and won’t date trans men, even post-op. So I know he’s at least partly gender critical. Well he is when it comes to HIS choices.

Women and girls though? Apparently we have to accommodate trans women and accept trans women as actual women. And he doesn’t see the big deal with women’s language being changed to include men.

This is the same person who refuses to believe women are more at risk than gay men. He says more gay men are subjected to DV than women and more at risk from violent/sexual attacks. He just waves away murder stats because they’re inconvenient to his point of view.

I know the boxer issue isn’t a trans issue but there’s overlap because what women are actually concerned about is the risk women are being told to accept. Different situation, similar concerns.

My friend and yours both made it clear that women don’t matter.

This man was a very, very close friend. Was.

It is a bereavement, a grieving process. On our society we don’t really acknowledge the pain of losing friendships, only romantic love. But the loss of platonic love is just as painful and really hard to process.

I hope you have other good friends around you OP. Your ex-friend sounds awful but it doesn’t mean you can’t be sad about the end of a friendship. It’s ok to feel a bit sad while simultaneously acknowledging that he doesn’t deserve you, your friendship, or your time.

"He says more gay men are subjected to DV than women"

Statistically, isn't it lesbian relationships that have the highest prevalence of DV?

lesbians report the most DV. But when you drill down further 30% of those reports are male on female (presumably past heterosexual relationships). When you take that out woman on woman intimate violence is less than male on female, although still surprisingly high. All DV being bad of course. None if it excusing a biological male hitting a woman in the Boxing ring with the blessing of the IOC

Hi, just curious what's his reason for not dating trans men?

Because vaginas are disgusting things and he’s not attracted to anyone who owns one, or might previously have owned one. Same for woman breasts.

He doesn’t see trans men as men so wouldn’t ever consider a relationship with one.

And that’s fine, but….

He simultaneously believes that women should #bekind to trans women. He said that the trans community are experiencing the same kind of mass discrimination that gay men suffered in the 80s. And when he says the trans community, he only means trans women aka biological men. Obviously his views on trans men aka biological women are absolutely reasonable and fine…spot the cognitive dissonance yet?!

My DP is actually furious with him. Genuinely livid. Because he feels as if friend expects us to be his ally (and we always have been and genuinely continue to be for the LGB community) but friend isn’t prepared to be the same kind of ally for women and girls. DP is angry that friend doesn’t care about female safety. Or women’s rights.

DP said to him “if words and language don’t matter then you won’t object to being called some of the unpleasant names used for gay people, right? Or actually, is it that words and language DO matter…?” (DP would never use those slurs, not ever, but friend was insistent that it shouldn’t matter if language to describe women disappeared so he was trying to underline the point).

Trying to be objective, I think friend is spouting views that he thinks make him part of the local LGBT community. He’s very reliant on other gay men (online and in real life) - and yes I do mean hookups - for social interaction. We were at a social event recently and he used the phrase “cis men” when there was no need, “men” would have sufficed. I instinctively eye-rolled but he didn’t notice. He has never used that phrase before so it caught me unawares because it was just ridiculously unnecessary- but underlines his current thinking.

I don’t think he really believes TWAW but I think he’s convinced himself that is what he thinks IYSWIM!

When I look back over our history, he’s always been centre right - but as he’s gotten older, he’s moved more to the right but crucially, more self-interested. Also, he’s never been especially interested in VAWG or women’s rights - but it’s only recently that he’s actually started to dismiss it outright.

@Walkden - I don’t think he’d care about lesbian stats because that centres women. And that’s the crux of all this - it’s become patently clear that his sympathy and concerns lie with men, and more specifically primarily gay men.

Sorry for long answer, I didn’t intend to derail. I think the point is it’s really hard to see views like this in a friendship and sometimes it becomes the hill to die on. And sometimes it helps those rose-tinted glasses to fall away so you can see someone for who they really are. That applies whether we’re talking about TW in sport or XY individuals with the advantage of male puberty.

At some point women have to matter - and if bodies like the IOC continue to ignore female safety, then I’m very grateful for the loud and determined voices of women trying to force them to listen.

"Because vaginas are disgusting things and he’s not attracted to anyone who owns one, or might previously have owned one. Same for woman breasts.

He doesn’t see trans men as men so wouldn’t ever consider a relationship with one."

Uh oh! I have it on good authority that that's transphobic!

That's so contradictory. He doesn't see trans men as men but women should be kind to trans women and accept them into our spaces. I wonder his views on lesbians not accepting trans women as sexual partners. It sounds like another case of a man not caring until it affects them personally.

Although there are trans men like Lou Sullivan out there, for the most part gay men aren't as threatened by trans men as lesbians are by trans women, and they know it.

It's nothing to do with fashion, or being "phobic". It's about truth.

I agree with another poster sayong the boxer discussion is a red herring here - I'd go as far as to say it would happen anyway, if not this topic than another, as you're describing quite an unhealthy relationship with this person OP. In your place, I would not try to prove, explain or do anything to fix it OP.

My DH doesn't think they're female as in XX but boy did he disappoint me when we talked about this. He thought the boxers would be uncomfortable and maybe even unsafe boxing with males. I then asked "what about the women who are uncomfortable or unsafe boxing with them?" and his reply was.. "well... those women chose to pick up boxing, that's a dangerous sport anyway".

And I know you all see the obvious issue in his thinking that he just fails to recognise.

*My DH doesn't think they're female as in XX but boy did he disappoint me when we talked about this. He thought the boxers would be uncomfortable and maybe even unsafe boxing with males. I then asked "what about the women who are uncomfortable or unsafe boxing with them?" and his reply was.. "well... those women chose to pick up boxing, that's a dangerous sport anyway".

And I know you all see the obvious issue in his thinking that he just fails to recognise.*

It's absolutely amazing isn't it! It's soooo hard for males who might be picked on, attacked by other males or even, heaven forfend, feel uncomfortable.

But if you say but what about that happening to women - for whom these things are far more serious as males have a much greater ability to harm and intimidate them – oh but that's OK!

It's so insane that so many people can't see the obvious SEX-BASED differences in both the RL situation, and in their thoughts about it.

Exactly this.

Regardless of the boxers, this man sounds like an arsehole and a really bad friend. I'm sorry, OP.

The vitriol from him has really shocked me

I'm really sorry OP. I'd like to think he means well, but I think that he and many other men simply empathise and prioritise male interests above women's safety.

@rogdmum A good number of them just hate women and are having a good pile-on moment in history, and some of them are probably secret autogynephiles or closet trans lovers themselves, so that's where the anger comes from.

@DuckDuckNo No The answer for many men, is that when a man is unsafe or uncomfortable, the answer to that is to put him with the loving & gentle women-folk who will surely look after them.....it doesn't matter how the women feel about it, how it makes an already vulnerable population more unsafe than before.

No. All that matters is the man and he must be top priority.

Sorry but I think your husbands a twat for his viewpoint.

My husband seems to have had an awakening this past week. I've had to explain XX/XY DSD's/ not a trans issue etc. but he does understand that you have a non-female individual fighting a woman for sport and can see this is not right. Before this he didn't really engage or dismissed it as "just a few men" or "it's just gay men". In reality he has no understanding of the GRA, self identification and what it means for women, or the fact that a biological man can now be a lesbian. I'm glad he sees things a bit clearer now and hope it continues.

*I don't like the term Trans woman and would usually say a man who identifies as not a man. However, I do have sympathy for a person born with one of these conditions and understand it's complicated and confusing so I that's why I said non-female individual.

Well since he's had to pull a Godwin (bringing Nazis into it), he's officially lost the argument. He's gone off to sulk.
He really sounds horrible.
Knowing you are operating on the sunken cost fallacy, you shouldn't sink any more into it, because you now know you're not going to get anything for your efforts. Better to put them to finding better friends and get something in return. The relationship hasn't been reciprocal. He charms you and love bombs you with flattery when he needs you, then abandons you when he's displeased with you. He's manipulative as hell. Obviously I can't l diagnose him as having NPD or anything like that, but everything you've written points to narcissistic personality traits at a minimum. People can be high in narcissistic traits but not meet the threshold for NPD. I think there a lot of people who are high in trait narcissism.

I have a few acquaintances who are incredibly self-righteous about their views.

Some argue from an ideological view, stating that it's their belief that TWAW and people with DSDs are whichever sex they say they are and that's the beginning and end of it. In these circumstances there isn't much of a discussion to be had.

Others think their TWAW/DSD claims are evidence- based. There is plenty of debate to be had in these instances. I find it helpful to identify the point at which our views diverge.

For example, at a BBQ this weekend a couple of friends were going for it in their discussion and I suggested seeing at which point they stopped agreeing - starting at conception then birth,childhood socialisation, puberty, adulthood. We explored views about what was their biological status at each point and what this meant for sporting competition.

It produced a far richer conversation. It also massively undermined one side's argument as it went beyond righteous indignation and tropes that are churned out and don't have any depth.

I wonder if Matthew Pinsent and Lord Coe's comments have changed his mind?

I know that a person is much more than a post on a forum, but you ex close friend sounds like a complete asshole. Your DP sounds like a good one though :)

Sorry you've had to go through this Patty78, it sounds really really shitty.
What you've decribed sounds like the love bombing process that somone with BPD ( borderline personality disorder ) puts their victims through. Life is either amazing or the worst thing on earth when BPD is around, and just flip flops between the two.
One thing that might help you deal with issue is reading up on BPD, and in reading up on you might discover coping strategies for people who have to deal with someone with BPD in their lives. You are not alone in having to deal with this, and there is help out there that will making coping with this person easier.