Huge argument with best friend about the boxers. Devestated.

[Patty78]

My best friend of 30 years has called me stupid, cruel, a fucking terf, a numpty, and an idealogical bigot. He also said he hopes my 7 year old daughter doesn't end up with XY chromosomes and I have to tell her she wasn't a real woman. Who does that?
I'm so so so upset. I went through my points clearly and calmly. I pointed him in the direction of Andrew Gold's interview with a developmental biologist. I said she made all the points much much better than I could.
I said I didn't really know what the situation was with this particular boxer because nobody could seem to agree. My only point was that if she is XY and went through male puberty, then some sort of policy should be in place. I also said that it wasn't fair for her to be in the limelight like this and that basically, it needs sorting at an administrative level.
The vitriol from him has really shocked me. I'm in tears. He's talking about my cruelty to this boxer (who he says was born and raised a woman and it doesn't matter about the chromosomes and would I also stop basketball players from growing too tall) whilst also being extraordinarily nasty to me.
Now I'm wondering if I've got this wrong.
The reason I have gender-critical views is because I want to protect my daughter. But I'm pretty isolated, on my own... and now I'm really really sad.

The IBA have responded insofar as they are able to.

It's the IOC who need to step up. Or the individuals in question.

@AllstarFacilier This puts it much more succinctly than my previous post, it really isn't that difficult to understand 🤷‍♂️

I imagine puberty gave both these boxers all the information they needed re their sex

For those considering what athletes with DSDs should do upon discovering the reality of their bodies, Erik Schinegger is a great example.

Having competed as a woman, always believing himself to be one, he discovered that his inverted genitals weren't actually a vagina. Upon this realisation he began living life as a man, stopped competing in women's sports, and offered his Olympic medals to the runner up.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erik_Schinegger

It's never kind to live a lie.

Yes because how she 'looks' is legitimate evidence...
Ffs

To some extent, it is relevant. Notwithstanding the fact that there's a wide range of appearance, size, shape and muscularity etc within each sex, there are also some key physical indicators of maleness and femaleness which humans have evolved to be able to recognise. For example males have a narrower, longer pelvis, greater upper body, shoulder and arm strength and size as a proportion of the whole body, prominent adam's apple, and there are measurable differences in gait (partly because of the pelvis and femur arrangement).

It's difficult because of course some women look more "masculine" than others, eg have broader shoulders or a larger jaw, and the same for some men having a more feminine appearance than average. But humans can still actually reliably identify natural (ie not cosmetically altered) adult males and females visually, most of the time, and we've evolved to because it matters for survival and reproduction.

I'm not suggesting what someone looks like should be the only test – and we don't need to do that for sports as we have scientific testing that can identify XY, XX, and all the DSDs (which are all male or female) too. But when someone does have a very male-looking body as Khelif does, I don't think it's wrong to notice that. In fact, most people will involuntarily notice it.

Having competed as a woman, always believing himself to be one, he discovered that his inverted genitals weren't actually a vagina. Upon this realisation he began living life as a man, stopped competing in women's sports, and offered his Olympic medals to the runner up.

I hadn't heard of him - what a star. He actually cared about women getting their dues and wanted to right the unfairness. It wasn't all about him. So old-fashioned!

Hmm. You say you are a feminist- well then remember Sisters over Misters- and in this case, you should have listened to your Sister, as she's damn well right.

You've allowed him to treat you like shit for too long; woman up and get a grip.

Put aside the views about the boxer- it's about time you stopped banging on about the right (bad) and you being a leftie (good) and realise that you have allowed this man to treat you like a lesser being because you are a woman. It's about time you started actually 'doing' feminism instead of actually just 'saying' feminism and either challenge this misogynistic idiot or walk away. Because your daughter is now learning from you about how to let people treat you.

He's played you- soul mate? Just another way to keep you gazing adoringly at him to feed his ego; you are a prop to his ego and when you challenged him, he didn't like it and you saw his true colours.

@BigPussyEnergy
Are you me? For the first two paragraphs, anyway. Including the scientist bit.

I would like to throttle whoever has been covering this for the BBC website and thus giving Khelif's inclusion initial far-reaching credibility. My DH pulled that up as the obvious general source, and still seems to think that on this aspect at least the BBC is doing balanced reporting (even though he knows very well that they don't for other areas).

It's one of the those times when I realise the gulf between men and women.

Very sad and angry atm, to be honest.

'The reason I have gender-critical views is because I want to protect my daughter.'
And also because its Reality.
That your 'friend' gets that agressive and histronic over such a completely reasonable concern, and especially shows no sympathy for you as a woman is a very large red flag.
I understand not wanting to lose a 'friend' when you are lonely, but its not worth it to your self respect or your daughters.
Better to join a group such as standing for women or womens rights network.
Hoestly I do think Mumsnetters should start a group on this topic.

And that he calls you a stupid 'cnt' shows he has absolutely no respect for you.
Personally I'd write him a stiff letter saying that no one speaks to you like that and its over.
Its a terrible example to your daughter, genuinely how dare he?

What did you say back when he said you were fat? No friend would ever say such a thing. Obviously your sisters had his number for years- I’d kill someone if they said that to my sister.

He sounds abhorrent.

Zdeněk Koubek is another athlete who discovered a VSD after competing as a woman. Koubek (voluntarily) handed back medals. Koubek's records were cancelled.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zden%C4%9Bk_Koubek

Apparently the press of the time was very supportive of Koubek's decision to live as a man.

Ahh, women's rights does tend to touch a nerve with misogynists.

Sorry to hear you've had an upsetting row.

What a great guy.

(Isn't it sad how amazing common decency and unselfish behavior towards women seems in our society.)

this whole shit show is like a real time version of invasion of the bodysnatchers. People you thought you knew, liked and respected show them selves to be utter mentalists regarding gender woo. Its not nice but at least you know this chap goes in the bin along with all the other nutters.

Oh and he does?
Its shocking etc, but fgs listen to what he is saying, the guy is a brainwashed fool who has some agenda for his agressive defense.
He sounds like the usual progressive mysoginist.
I cant get over what he said to you.

How dre he, find your anger, show it too him.
No matter what you disagree on make it crystal clear he has no right to behave in this appalling way.

And of course, this doesnt impact on him - in the slightest!
He sounds infuriatingly appalling.

And?
How does that help the OP?

I remember when I was young a male friend, who I thought was a really good friend, said to me "I wish I could have a girlfriend with your personality but in X's body" (X being a pretty, large-breasted blonde woman we knew).

Amazingly he was surprised that I was put out by this. He genuinely thought I should be flattered that I'd met half of his requirements! He didn't even ask himself if either of us would want him. He was no oil painting himself on top of being an arrogant twat, but at a very deep level that he didn't even question, he thought that letting me know he'd consider me as a partner if I was better-looking would be nice for me. I think a lot of men think that gaining their approval is all women want. Then when women have their own ideas or priorities they hate it and get angry.

So why are there photos of Caster wearing the boys school uniform rather than the girls? And no, not dressing up day…

He isn’t your soul mate and you weren’t a team. He didn’t treat you like an equal.

He thrived off your attention and loyalty to him.

You are upset because you think you have lost something that didn’t exist.

He is a misogynist twat that your daughter shouldn’t have anything to do with. You shouldn’t.

But when his ego needs a boost he will try and work his way back in.

???
Youre answers are all in your post!
You know he is an arse, has no respect for your sex, or you by the sounds of it.

30 years you have put up with what sounds like an abusive relationship, what role do you play in this scenario?
Understanding big sis/surrogate mum?
Please dont be doormattish with him

Sorry, didn't mean to derail. A previous post mentioned something along the lines of "well, are these athletes now supposed to live as men?" and I was just popping an example of where this had happened.

I have had similar from male aquaintances, wont call them friends anymore.
Show your personality, you become big sis /friend but you arent an object anymore, they cant cope with it.

Actually yes, when it comes to sex and not whatever bullshit gender expression is supposed to be - yes, the morphology not the lipstick or the clothes or the head tilt gives it all away!

Your daughters chromosomes are not going to change whatever her hormones do. He sounds a bit thick I'm afraid.

Has he seen the recent video of Semenya saying that having testicles doesn’t make him any less a woman? Interested to know how far these men will go in their assertions and defences.