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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do women in the U.K. know or care about the threat to women’s and girls rights now they’ve voted labour?

1000 replies

Heylo · 05/07/2024 07:14

i know the tories record on public services are abysmal and bar some genuine believers like Kemi Badenoch the tories would likely go the trans route if they thought it would buy them votes. But, currently it’s the tories who offered to protect women and girls from the trans madness. My question is - which women voted in trans loving, women - hating Labour?

we can look forward to -

  1. continued gender ideology being pumped out in schools
  2. conversion ban - you better hope your child doesn’t start questioning their gender out loud because TRA ridden schools will be referring them to gender clinics and socially transitioning them now they have a mandate
  3. same sex attracted lesbians (myself included) it’s completely game over. Keep your head down and your mouth shut. Trans identified males and their female allies have already closed down every women only night. Same sex attracted women are now labelled bigots. We are no longer welcome in London’s LGBT soup community
  4. prisons - what happens to vulnerable women? They are already disbelieved and dismissed. Now they have to endure the staring and various forms of sexual harrassment that goes with being incarcerated with men

i can only hope our political landscape mirrors America and in the same way Trump will be voted back in this year, we will have The Tories being led by Kemi back in in 4 years time.

omg I can’t believe we have to kiss goodbye to women’s rights - for the next four years

back to my original question. Apart from TRA idealouges, why have women voted these clowns in? Is it that they prioritise the Tories terrible record on public services over this? Do some women not see it as a huge issue? would love to hear from some posters who voted Labour.

Thanks & stay safe out there, as women we have woken up to a a dark chapter in history today

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:44

Helleofabore · 05/07/2024 16:33

What a dishonest post.

Same genitals? Do you mean same sex?

Because 'genital' presentation alone does not 100% mean that all people in that sex have the same body variation. You seem to be using medically incorrect concepts to misrepresent other's points here.

And to portray women as being 'obsessed' with genitals because they are discussing the prioritisation of sex over gender when sex matters is just another emotionally manipulative tactic.

Did you want to answer you how want to verify everyone's sex then? Since you were so keen on sex verification in sport where women did have their genitals checked

Helleofabore · 05/07/2024 16:45

Melisha · 05/07/2024 16:25

This is not true. Any time I have tried to engage I get accused of being a man or a TRA. I am neither.

Are you Humtum?

Keeptoiletssafe · 05/07/2024 16:45

qsforall · 05/07/2024 13:31

To answer your questions
What do you call vulnerable?
I would say people who consider themselves vulnerable

Where you say Mixed sex spaces are consistently shown to have a higher rate of assaults can you post your sources for that?

The mixed changing room space in the swimming pool near me which has worked for years and there have been no reported assaults has a system where men and women enter lockable units which lock both sides and so you go in, change and then once in your costume go to a shared space where there are lockers. Both sexes then go to the swimming pool where you have men and women in swimming suits swimming next to each other and walking near each other and children too. The toilets are either just normal toilets with lockable cubicles, or individual units. Are you saying all of this is unnacceptable?

If you are saying that a percentage of women cannot cope with the above, I would support discussing the possibility of special places for vulnerable people, women or whoever else considers themselves vulnerable, with alarms etc - but you need to bear in mind what is feasible from a cost point of view and that any public space is open to abuses - which is not feasible - then there may be abuses - you can't design a special system which gets rid of all risk unless you can afford special places just for you which have security guards and you have several body guards.

Tackling violent crime against women and other vulnerable groups and violence in society as a whole as separate issues - causes, what can be done about it, thinking about schools' roles to tackle mindsets in teenagers - is also really important

My personal evidence is that a saved a young woman’s life by seeing her collapsed on the floor inside a toilet cubicle (because of the floor to door gap). She was vulnerable because she wasn’t breathing and we cleared the vomit from her mouth and shook her until she did. I doubt she considered herself vulnerable when she entered the cubicle - she probably was disorientated and drunk. Maybe now days could have been spiked? Paramedics have subsequently said to me toilet rooms are where they commonly find people. Ironically I was in a nightclub when I saw her (in the U.K.) but nightclub toilet design (in the USA) plays a role in our new designs.

Privacy and dignity are the buzz words that have priority over safety. The point with the new enclosed designs is that there is no evidence they are safer than the single sex toilets with door gaps top and bottom. All the evidence and common sense shows they are unsafe. Politicians haven’t thought it through to real situations.

This is long but you said you wanted evidence. I have shortened sources by condensing in the hyperlinks. If you want a real life example press the ‘problems’ hyperlink as schoolchildren have been the guinea pigs for enclosed designs. Protecting from harm should always be a priority in any design:

Document T details the toilet designs that will come in to force in October 2024 in the UK. The toilet designs are dangerous for everyone but in particular, disabled people, medically vulnerable, women and girls.

There are 4 toilet designs:

• A Ambulant universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• B Universal - full height door and full height floor to ceiling partitions

• C Single sex ambulant - profile diagram shows full height door and no door gaps, no partition gaps

• D Single sex - no profile diagram, no mention of door or partition heights, AND can be designed as Type A or B ie fully enclosed for single sex use

None of the designs specify a door gap at the bottom of the door or at the top.

Why do gaps matter?

Because toilet door gaps save lives.

If you collapse, being able to survive or if you suffer long-term damage, will be down to whether someone notices and rescues you.

If you’re out and about or at work and feel nauseous/ill you are likely to head to the toilet.
There are around 100,000 hospital admissions due to heart attacks in this country, equating to one every five minutes. It is estimated there are 400,000 people in the U.K. with undiagnosed cardiac problems.
There are also around 100,000 strokes in this country, equating to one every five minutes. There are known medical reasons for a disproportionally high frequency of cardiac arrests and strokes while an individual is in the toilet.
Around 1% of people in this country have epilepsy and around 80 people are diagnosed with epilepsy each day. To put it into perspective there are around 9 children with epilepsy in an average secondary school.
There are many other conditions that lead to collapse where you need to be noticed and accessed quickly eg. diabetes.

A recent government report noted 80% of the thousands of incidents of drink spiking happen in public places, usually in bars and clubs, mainly to women, average age 26.

Prevention of sexual assaults
In any space that becomes private, more offences are likely to take place. In Parliament it was discussed that there was at least 1 rape inside a school premises each day (over 600 in a 3 year period). The data, collected by the BBC, mentions an example occurring in a private cupboard. This was in 2015, before many schools decided to change their toilet designs to fully enclosed and mixed sex. There is no available data on these new toilet designs but, teachers and pupils are reporting many problems with drug dealing, dirt and sex. The toilet door gaps are vital for safeguarding to help prevent activities that stop pupils, especially girls, going to the toilet. There are known problems of girls avoiding toilets and getting urinary infections or missing school. This legislation does not affect schools but they have been at the ‘coalface’ of new experimental toilet designs so it a good demonstration of what goes wrong.

A quick internet search brings up the disproportionate number of sexual assaults and rapes that happen to able bodied and disabled women and girls in disabled toilets in this country which are obviously mixed sex and fully enclosed toilets, often in very public places such as busy train stations and shopping centres.

More problems with toilets with enclosed full height doors are:

  1. Ventilation is decreased so there’s a higher risk of disease spread.
  2. Evacuation times are greatly increased as a responder can’t tell quickly if stalls are occupied.
  3. Hygiene is compromised as a mop can’t go underneath the doors nor floor be washed down. It is awkward to enter the cubicle with a mop and detritus ends up on the partition corners.
  4. Doors are more likely to get stuck/warped and the cubicle out of action.
  5. People are more likely to engage in illegal activities (drugs) or self harm if they are in a private space.
  6. The length of time in a cubicle is increased, especially if the wash basin is in there so queues are longer.
  7. Occupants can’t see if anyone is lying in wait outside their cubicle if they are feeling vulnerable. In addition doors will now open from the outside as a safety measure due to enclosure.

Why have toilet cubicle door gaps disappeared from the new public toilet designs?

There are many articles and videos on why we have gaps under and over toilet doors - so it is worrying these have been ignored. The initial government consultation that was publicised several years ago led to Stonewall coordinating a response and very effectively dominating the results. There is nothing wrong with this lobbying but the policy goals that were created from the initial consultation concentrated on mixed sex ‘universal’ toilets and privacy because of toilets being mixed sex.

ARUP was appointed by the Department for Levelling Up, Housing and Communities to carry out research into the toilet requirements of the population of England in the built environment, in particular disabled people and people with long-term health conditions. The government also did a second consultation. I wrote a lengthy response to the second consultation, detailing the statistics and need for door gaps but none of these issues were mentioned on published consultation results.

In the ARUP document, the justification (evidence and literature) for fully enclosed toilets comes from two American sources on p.129 of the report. I have spent time analysing these sources as so much seems to depend on them. These are a restroom design for a Minnesota high school and an American paper from Joel Sanders and Susan Stryker. The later two authors are referenced in the Minnesota project. In a recent YouTube Harvard talk (April 2024), Sanders said that transgender access to public restrooms rekindled his interest in queer space so he set up the ‘Stalled’ company with Prof Susan Stryker, but he admitted he did not have enough data on whether his designs worked as so few had been built. The reason for the fully enclosed idea is discussed in their paper referenced by ARUP: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’

No safety concerns of fully enclosed cubicles were acknowledged in these two ARUP ‘evidences’. No analysis has been done on the safety on fully enclosed cubicles. The only ‘evidence’ was the Minnesota school questionnaire asking 794 high school students to answer mostly tick box questions, about the all-inclusive restroom design (very open plan, with security cameras, separate sink rows). Full height ‘walls’ were rated in 3rd place for safety from the pre-supplied answer list. Only 43%, who knew both restroom types, preferred the all-inclusive model to whatever their old restrooms were (the difference from the reported histogram: approx 35 females, 83 males).

So the Arup recommendation for fully enclosed cubicles is from a tiny amount of very poor evidence and literature focused on a different group. Their ‘evidence’ bears no resemblance to any of the designs of UK toilets in Document T. Their ‘evidence’ does not take into account any long term health conditions nor disabilities’ analysis.

Considering it was looking at the requirements of people with long term health conditions, in the whole Arup document there was no mention of the words: seizure, faint, diabetes, cardiac, heart, epilepsy, syncope, endometriosis, menorrhagia, collapse. There was one mention of ‘stroke’ in reference to a grab rail. There are two pages of lists of references to handrails. However I would argue that a floor-to-door gap is even more vital in design for those having a stroke and those who are frail because of a previous stroke, so it can be seen they have collapsed.

What other equality impacts have been done?

I can not find any other evidence or research as to why the designs are fully enclosed in the published documents. Obviously this does not mean everything has been published. However, the Equality Impact Assessment for the Provision of Toilets (updated 15th May 2024) does not mention door gaps. It goes through all protected characteristics and does not identify any negative impacts of full enclosure.

Conclusion

Specifying toilet door gaps will enable offices, shops and entertainment venues to be suitable for workers and children with health conditions where there is a chance of collapse without warning and then Document T will satisfy the requirements in Equality Act 2010, The Health and Safety at Work Act (1974), Children Act 1989.

In terms of negative impacts for the protected characteristics in the Equality Act (2010), the absence of door to floor gaps in design affects age, sex (discussed above), disability (discussed above), and pregnancy and maternity. It affects everyone in terms of disease prevention, a medical emergency and fire evacuation.

The designs in Document T do specify that every door should be able to be opened from the outside and an inward opening door have a release mechanism so it can be pulled outwards in the event a body is blocking the door opening - but how do you know there is a body there? At the very least there should be a door gap of sufficient height between the floor and the bottom of the door to safeguard the occupant in single sex toilet designs C and D. As the designs are in Document T, there is no specification other than full height doors.

The government needs to enable people with long-term health conditions to live safe lives and help them be independent and in work. It needs women and children to be safe and prevent assaults through good design.

These designs have dismissed the rights of certain disabled groups (people with epilepsy etc) to a safe working and leisure environment.

There appears to be no emergency evacuation assessment and a fire risk assessment for a row of fully enclosed toilets compared to a ‘traditional’ row of toilets with door gaps.

There is no risk assessment on the impact of disease spread from less cleanable and less well ventilated fully enclosed toilets.

They do not recognise the danger of fully enclosed toilets for the chances of surviving a long term injury or death from collapse such as from a heart attack, stroke, epilepsy, brain injury, diabetes and fragility.

And they do not recognise the dangers, particularly to women and children, that a private space in a public area brings.

Single sex designs C and D need to specify floor-to-door safety gaps. If models A or B are used in single sex toilets, they need their design altered to include floor-to-door safety gaps.

It would also be life-saving to have floor-to-door safety gaps in all medical settings that are single sex in design.

Mind the gap! It could save your life.

Toilet accommodation: Approved Document T

Building regulation in England to provide guidance on the design and layout of universal toilets, ambulant toilets and toilet cubicles.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/toilet-accommodation-approved-document-t

Italianita · 05/07/2024 16:46

@DaisyCat33

I don't see trans people as some sort of dangerous or risky group that are out to get me

Hate to say it but when people say things like this, I think they must be incredibly thick and stupid.
Unfortunately that even includes my own adult daughter who just CANNOT or WILL NOT see the risk.

Love her but so disappointed.

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:46

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:31

Do you know how drug testing is done in sport?

Do you know how sex verification used to be done? Do you know why it was stopped?

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:49

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:46

Do you know how sex verification used to be done? Do you know why it was stopped?

Sex verification could be done with a simple cheek swab.

Drug tests require an observer to watch the urine sample be produced, rather more invasive than a cheek swab.

Humtum · 05/07/2024 16:51

Helleofabore · 05/07/2024 16:35

They are a male person who has a gender identity who has lived their life as a male person with a gender identity for two years.

A transwoman is not a woman. A male person cannot become a female person nor can they ever live as a female person. It is just not possible. They can only live their life in a way that they believe a female person lives, but that is only a concept that they have in their mind.

This person is -

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=620503505100033
Dr Imogen Gingell is a Research Associate in Space Physics in the Department of Physics, who identifies as a lesbian and a trans woman.

So many many many examples of trans women living fulfilling lives.

But these stories and examples probably don't matter to you, real people, with real needs and wants, to have careers and families and success.... all you seem to care about is whose sharing your loo...

You dont get to decide who belongs.

Log in or sign up to view

See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=620503505100033

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:52

Humtum · 05/07/2024 16:51

This person is -

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=620503505100033
Dr Imogen Gingell is a Research Associate in Space Physics in the Department of Physics, who identifies as a lesbian and a trans woman.

So many many many examples of trans women living fulfilling lives.

But these stories and examples probably don't matter to you, real people, with real needs and wants, to have careers and families and success.... all you seem to care about is whose sharing your loo...

You dont get to decide who belongs.

Lots of men live fulfilling lives. Not quite sure what your point is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/07/2024 16:52

Yes but if you're agreeing it's a key political policy then you have to have an idea of a policy. What's yours?

You haven't been reading my posts. I've been perfectly clear what I want.

Helleofabore · 05/07/2024 16:53

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:27

Considering there are posters like @Helleofabore endorsing the idea of sex verification in sports (which involved examinations hence me asking if she actually had read up on the process) that's why I'm asking how you want people to prove their sex

Sex verification can be reliably done with a cheek swab, I believe from listening to the female athletes who had to do these tests in the past.

Can you tell us why a cheek swab will not give an accurate indication of the sex of the person?

And again for readers now really because there is little point in engaging further with you. Female athletes and female people should have full confidence in the sporting bodies protecting their needs for fair and safe participation in sport. They do not. Until the Atlanta Olympics, female people were sex tested before they were eligible to compete. Sex testing is not a new thing.

If male people fully respected female people's needs for fair and safe competition and did not enter female sports, then as previously, less female athletes would be asked if they were female.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/07/2024 16:53

You dont get to decide who belongs.

Men don't belong in spaces intended for women.

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:53

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:49

Sex verification could be done with a simple cheek swab.

Drug tests require an observer to watch the urine sample be produced, rather more invasive than a cheek swab.

Go have a read

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:54

Sex testing is not a new thing.

It was done in Ancient Greece.

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:54

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:53

Go have a read

Read what?

Humtum · 05/07/2024 16:55

Helleofabore · 05/07/2024 16:45

Are you Humtum?

Twice asked if I am a male 😂

I hope this forum doesn't require genital verification...

Jeyzus.

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:55

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/07/2024 16:52

Yes but if you're agreeing it's a key political policy then you have to have an idea of a policy. What's yours?

You haven't been reading my posts. I've been perfectly clear what I want.

No you didn't. For example you didn't clearly address the two points I asked you about what you want.

Humtum · 05/07/2024 16:56

On the basis that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with - It's time to leave this pit.

Thanks for the energy to keep fighting the good trans cause!

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:56

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:54

Read what?

About the history of sex verification...?

FlirtsWithRhinos · 05/07/2024 16:57

Whyisthatonthefloor · 05/07/2024 16:44

I agree with you on the female spaces stuff.

Im just adding that GNC women ARE hassled in female spaces, and were for a long time before trans women started wanting our spaces.

Homophobia is very real- for me it started at school when i wasn’t allowed to change in the same room as the other girls because they had complained to their parents who had kicked off with the school. My presence made them uncomfortable so I had to change separately. I have a friend that had the same at school.

That sucks. I'm so sorry that happened to you.

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:58

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:54

Read what?

Well I read about how three males stole the all the medals in the Rio Olympics female 800m race….

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 05/07/2024 16:58

@Whatever1964 why don’t you answer how men identify as women? You seek to demand everyone answer your questions, you haven't answered the simplest one of them all.

wincarwoo · 05/07/2024 16:58

Humtum · 05/07/2024 16:56

On the basis that you are the average of the five people you spend the most time with - It's time to leave this pit.

Thanks for the energy to keep fighting the good trans cause!

Thanks for joining the thread. Always helps when the TRAs weigh in.

Italianita · 05/07/2024 16:58

Humtum · 05/07/2024 16:51

This person is -

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=620503505100033
Dr Imogen Gingell is a Research Associate in Space Physics in the Department of Physics, who identifies as a lesbian and a trans woman.

So many many many examples of trans women living fulfilling lives.

But these stories and examples probably don't matter to you, real people, with real needs and wants, to have careers and families and success.... all you seem to care about is whose sharing your loo...

You dont get to decide who belongs.

all you seem to care about is whose sharing your loo.....

If biological males had NEVER EVER committed sexual crimes in womens spaces, then maybe we wouldn't give a fuvk about them coming in?

Sloejelly · 05/07/2024 16:59

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:56

About the history of sex verification...?

Lots of bad things happen in the past. What is your issue with cheek swabs?

Signalbox · 05/07/2024 17:00

Whatever1964 · 05/07/2024 16:44

Did you want to answer you how want to verify everyone's sex then? Since you were so keen on sex verification in sport where women did have their genitals checked

Did you want to answer you how want to verify everyone's sex then?

Whatever happened to relying on a person’s integrity to not enter a space or competition not meant for them? Why can’t we just trust that men who claim to be women will respect that they should not enter spaces and sporting events that are clearly not intended to include or accommodate them? Men know what sex they are. Even the men who say they are women know what sex they are.

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