Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

How would providing a third, gender neutral space be outing?

Presumably both men and women should be able to use that space.

Why would anyone suspect that a passing trans person wasn’t exactly what they claimed to be? That’s exactly the point of providing that space that anyone can use.

And as has been pointed out before, just because you are fine with men in your toilet, that doesn’t mean all women are fine with it. Your consent is not enough and you cannot consent on their behalf. Your consent may mean some women can no longer use a space they have used for years.

Women are legally entitled to single sex changing rooms, showers, sleeping accommodation, prison cells, hospital wards etc for our safety, privacy and dignity. The provision of 3rd spaces where possible is a reasonable solution.
But this is rejected as undressed/ vulnerable women and girls are required for the validation of men who claim to be women. Despite the reluctance of said women and girls to assume the role of support human beings, this is ignored with a mixture of threats, intimidation and coercion to persuade women to remove boundaries and accept our assigned role as support humans.

The Scottish government are clear in their determination to wedge male prisoners claiming to be women into the female estate that these men must have access to women and the female experience.

Once you see this, you can't unsee it.

I genuinely don't know whether the thousands of vulnerable young women who've been persuaded that their developing bodies are flawed and that changing sex is the solution are making the same demands of men? I suspect not for numerous reasons.

This took a little longer than expected.

Now where's my dabber?

What, this Shon Faye?

It really grates on me that they can't accept their OWN spaces. Agree with others they want the women in the space rather than a space. Infruriating that we have to put up with this because politicians and organisations are more scared of upsetting them than women.

Also agree that it is a fetishisation of women because how TF does anyone know what being a woman feels like?? Just because they're not comfortable being men doesn't automatically make them women. And same for trans men. If someone hates being white they don't automatically become Asian. Imagine if we allowed people to identify as another race...Yes, some people aren't comfortable in their own bodies and they can and should have a separate identity of being Trans with a community of people just like them - none of whom are men or women, they're just trans. Anyone who doesn't like it is fetishising being a woman and playing dress up because it's all based on physical appearance!

@MrsOvertonsWindow
"... mixture of threats, intimidation and coercion to persuade women to remove boundaries and accept our assigned role as support humans."

I know exactly what you mean! Ive experienced this throughout my life - completely outside the trans issue. Men have always expected women to be their bloody carers!

Where is the reasoned debate and who is proving calm, explanatory arguments on behalf of trans people so the rest of us might be persuaded that there are genuine and reasonable issues to be addressed? India Willoughby seems to be the public representative and I do not feel persuaded! And in fact Im increasingly being persuaded by the fetish/ male controlling/ domineering/ crushing women's rights/ woke gone mad arguments.

Oh yeah. He’s a peach.

So, we're excluding Muslim women, Jewish women, raped women, domestically abused women, women with any form of trauma from male violence, women who don't like being flashed, women who don't want their children to be flashed, gaslit and used as unconsenting props and their safeguarding instincts thus undermined. and women who have heavy periods from toilets and changing rooms and other formerly single sex spaces and facilities (and from public life) to accommodate less than 1% of the population.

This is exclusionary of half of the population - the half that does most of the unpaid caring work. It's creating an urinary leash for 50% of the population.

All for the wants of a minority of narcissistic toxic men.

And there should be no problem with creating at least one unisex toilet - if they can manage to do it for disabled people then they can manage one unisex. But that's not what TRAs want - they want to coercively control women and children.

The arguments 'oh businesses can't do it' are bollocks and reminiscent of the arguments against disabled toilets. If TRAs really felt trans people were oppressed they'd be fighting for their own toilets. But no.

Toilets can either have one or two all people individual toilets (and one disabled) or single sex plus unisex/ gender based. If they only have men's toilets and unisex toilets (even if labelled women) that's discriminating against women.

Babla nobody is saying that all transwomen are perverts. You need to play it forward though - if abusive men are able to access areas where women are vulnerable simply by saying they are trans, why wouldn’t they? There are many times more abusive men than there are transwomen, so then any ‘transwoman’ in a ladies toilet/changing room is statistically more likely to be dangerous.

You might even say that’s already happening…

Well, think about it reasonably. Say trans people somehow band together and campaign for third spaces.

You have a railway station with a set amount of space. Where does the money come from to change the layout and fund the works? It would make male/female/disabled facilities smaller and piss people off that way.

I guess the reason trans people don't tend to want to use male toilets is the threat of sexual violence, whether they're transmen or transwomen. Yes, that's the objection against trans people using women only facilities but if you're not an fetishist or a rapist, you just want a piss without being attacked, you'd want to go in the women's most likely.

Even with separate spaces there's not really anything to stop a sex offender going into women's toilets, whether dressed as a man or not.

My preference would be a default to fully enclosed unisex separate cubicles designed for safety and much more regular cleaning, together with cleaning attendants for security and to shame the filth makers.

The reason many activists outright reject third spaces and categories is entirely ideological; and nothing to do with wanting dignity, fairness and safety for all.

Ideological imposition is sought becaue only through authoritarian and oppressive measures can an identity rooted entirely in personal feeling or desires be validated. What is fair for other people is not a consideration.

Transgender Ideology is the apotheosis of the cult of Individualism combined with the contemporary over-emphasis on 'feelings' being the only truth/ " My truth".

Can’t take a photo in a separate facility and share it online, not the same is it? Or won’t be able to tell a story about how a woman asked you for a tampon as you totally pass.

I could mention the ones who like to root through the bins, but I won’t.

I actually wish there was more push back from religious groups and how it excludes those women.

Here's a handy visual for those who don't understand why we want to exclude ALL male people, regardless of how they identify, from female space.

Open public disapproval is the usual method for ensuring that single sex spaces are honoured and that people can feel confident in calling offenders out.

Even with floor to ceiling cubicles there will still be an external corridor which is mixed sex - this also poses potential safety issues for women and girls -especially in the night time economy. Plus if this would still cause many women to feel uncomfortable or unsafe then why do it - when distinct facilities could be made available for those that don't feel comfortable or safe using those for their own sex?

The new mixed sex toilets at the new Factory arts building in Manchester are an unpleasant and uncomfortable experience for many. Why is this necessary?

But if a transperson (particularly a man identifying as a woman) prefers to avoid male lavatories because of the risk of potential male violence, then that is wholly a male problem to solve; why is it always women who have to shift along and make room on the bench and give up their hard won private spaces?

Surely the logical conclusion is to campaign for third spaces?

Logic doesn’t come into this “debate”. If it did, it would all fall apart.

... but.... Be niiiiiiiiiice.

OP, there was a lively thread related to this topic just a few days ago.
Unfortunately it became all about one poster by the end, but it's worth a read if you've got time on your hands!😄

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5009174-does-anyone-actually-fully-support-trans-people-in-womens-changing-rooms-and-loos

Men, especially, don't pass even if they think they do. I see an increasing number of men presenting in female clothing/attire where I live - and it is always very obvious that they are male; what is also obvious is that a significant number of then are dressing for fetishistic/sexual reasons. I've seen some sights, I can tell you - and have also felt very strongly that for some there is also a strongly voyeuristic element of being 'thrilled' to be in a female space.

Most men now claiming trans identities are AGPs - which by definition is a sexual orientation. Their 'identity' does not and cannot take precedence over the feelings, comfort, dignity or safety of women and girls.

Third gender neutral spaces and categories ensure everyone can feel safe and everyone has some dignity. The reason that many reject them is that validation is the primary desire - and that need and desire for validation is imposed on others ( women and girls) even when they don't feel comfortable with it at all.

Maybe we need xx chromosome toilets and women’s toilets. Then the trans women will be happy about the label on the door and the real women will have a protected space.

God it’s infuriating.

Because if you're cosplaying as a woman and you're not allowed to go in the women's spaces and instead are shunted into a room with other men who are cosplaying as women, where's the fun in that? The whole point is that you're mistaken for a woman, or at least that women have to tolerate you cosplaying as them and they're not allowed to complain about it. That's how you get off!

From what I can see in debates it is because they don’t want to be treated as trans, they wanted to be treated as the gender they identify with so a transwoman going to a transtoilet feels discriminated against because she is a woman in her mind…

And this is the crazyness of all the trans issues

So what argument do they put forward?

The arguments are pretty straightforward. They are…

1. That TWAW so belong in women’s spaces.
2. Keeping TW out of single sex spaces and expecting them to use 3rd spaces is comparable to keeping black women out of women’s spaces and expecting them to use 3rd spaces.

Obviously if you believe TWAM this argument falls flat on its face.

My male gay friends who go to saunas and bathhouses are VERY CLEAR that they do not accept transmen in those spaces because they view them ( correctly) as women. Apparently happens a fair bit as not all transmen are ( as the popular assumption goes) just basically butch presenting lesbians but women who , for whatever complicated psychosexual reason, want to have sex with gay men.

There is no 'be kind' about it - those men are there to have sex with each other and absolutely recognise a female body for what it is and want no part of it.

But because they are men, and have more power than women, they get to say No Thank You and absolutely nobody is throwing their toys out of the pram about the lack of inclusion in Male spaces.

The transmen I know do pass quite well day to day by looking like short, slight men. They use men's loos and changing rooms ( cubicles though) and anecdotally have had no trouble doing so.