Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

because you would be outing so many people who have lived in their identity for years- there are plenty of people who are trans and passing, contrary to the popular mumsnet belief that all trans people are men in drag 🙄. You would be demanding people disclose a part of their identity that is so open to personal risk and harm- just see the comments in this thread- just to go to the loo.

What comments in this thread put men with trans identities at risk?

And 'outing' - do you mean acknowledging someone's sex? Is it outing for someone to be able to take one glance at me and know I'm female? Of course it's not, it's just the same as noticing I have brown hair or I'm 5' tall. It's not 'outing' in the slightest for someone to acknowledge their own, or someone else's sex!

So your proposal is that if a trans identifying man is passing, then they should be allowed to go in the ladies? Who determines if they pass? that sounds demeaning for me, demanding some kind of femininity standard to be allowed into ladies, rather than simply going off a person's immutable sex!

What are the stats for number of transwomen attacked in male toilets?

As this is cited as the main reason transwomen feel unsafe in men's toilets it's surely been recorded somewhere?

I know one who does use them. I think 'happily' is stretching it a bit though, as men's loos are grim, which often gets commented on!

I’d have thought there were huge opportunities here for ‘allies’ to be supportive.

Women who wanted to use the unisex loos could do so to show solidarity & normalise it.

Men like Owen Jones, Billy Bragg & Dinosaur Dave Lammy could lead the push for transwomen to be safe & accepted in the correct toilet for their sex.

Are you new to this topic? The WHOLE point is to invade the spaces off women and girls, same for sports, business and everything else. However it might be good to have such designated transgender spaces, as they would be left empty then us women could use them.

None. None whatsoever.

Women and children however, have been assaulted by TW in women's toilets.

But who gives a shit about the physically weaker and smaller people, as long as the physically larger and stronger sex get what they want? Yeah, it really is that batshit.

Fionne Orlander and Blaire White, both very pretty and what might be considered 'passing' TW, use the men's toilets without incident and have written about it.

The transmen I know tend to use the disabled loos (but they don’t pass as men)

bringbacktheladiesloos · Today 08:55

What are the stats for number of transwomen attacked in male toilets?

As far as I'm aware, there aren't any, or at least no one has been able to find any. We just get India, LOJ & co saying, "As we know, there's an epidemic of violence against transw in male toilets."

And expecting everyone to accept it as fact.

@RebelliousCow completely agree with you about the unisex toilets in Factory. My heart sank when I went in with my kids.

They've done the same with Manchester Museum, but at least there's the option to go (out of your way) to the single sex toilets in the basement.

Because:

"Bridges expressed concerns about her safety if she were to compete alongside men"

Oof. The enormous irony.

The argument though would be that you haven’t noticed all the transwomen who do pass. Yes, I’ve noticed transwomen but how many transwomen were there that I didn’t notice because they passed.
It’s like when people say that they didn’t wear seatbelts in a car and they are still alive now, well that’s because all the people who died aren’t here to say that.

That said, I’ve yet to meet a transwomen who passed.

To add - I've heard the opposite side of this argument put forward to silly women who fear the presence of men in their spaces.

As in - well, if anything were to happen, you could report it (after the event, obviously). Which begs the question - if a TW was targeted for being a bit different to other men using the men only spaces, surely he could just report it?

Just to be clear - I don't want anyone to be assaulted. I accept that these men might feel uncomfortable if they were 'dressed' and using the correct single sex space. But this is an issue for men to solve. Women should not be forced to budge up.

I think it was Magdalen Burns who said - men should just stop being dicks to other men who look a bit different to them (or words to that effect)

I suppose in terms of sports, if you have all trans people competing in the same event then you have exactly the same issue as you have if trans people compete with males / female events.

i.e. there will be some trans people who are biologically male and some who are biologically female all in the same event.

So you'd need one event for trans men, one event for trans women, and I'm not sure what non binary people do. And if you split it up that much, there's the issue of how many competitors you would even have in those events and whether there would be enough to make a decent event.

I'm not advocating for or against - it's just complicated whatever you do.

I dont understand it either really, but the people here who say we only need two are equally delusional. I try to use the mens room when i can, but a lot of the time i hear "your in the wrong bathroom" because a man assumes im a woman, and so i leave and wait until its empty because i dont know how he'll react to me saying im trans. if women couldnt convince men to be nice in 10,000 years how are tw supposed to have convinced them in 50. it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different, and even if exogenous estrogen doesn't make you nearly as weak as a female it does make you several times weaker then non trans males.

Well there was an issue with having a Nonbinary category in the states IIRC, where the parent of a competitor said that they should have a male NB category and a female NB category or else it wasn't fair!

The point with sports is that while I have heard TRAs saying 'genitals don't do sport, stop getting fixated on genitals' etc
And of course they are right. But it's not about the genitals FFS. It's about the bodies attached to those genitals! In the same way, gender identities don't play sport.

So I don't think it is complicated. Keep the sports that need to be single sex for safe and fair competition, single sex. Gender identities can stay out of it.

That's why most campaigns are about inclusion. Because most people (and most trans people) aren't elite athletes, or in the top income bracket. Most of us are using facilities and services with limited budgets and we're pragmatic and realistic!

This

And most trans people aren't pervy fetishists who hate women

Most of us are using facilities and services with limited budgets and we're pragmatic and realistic!

It literally costs £0 for men to keep out of women's spaces, sports, prisons, hospital wards, rape crisis services etc etc.
£0

Some transmen use the men's loos . I have a male family member who had a trans man as a fellow class member and who made a big thing of going to the men's. My relative found this really awkward and avoided going to the toilets when this person was in there as was very much aware that this person was not male and felt very embarassed about it. (The trans man also would berate gay men for not wanting to date them and wonder why ? Relative was tempted to point out the glaring obvious reason why). Have known of other trans men using male toilets also.
As for why trans women do not wish separate trans spaces , I would suggest OP that it is all the reasons PP's have mentioned. They require validation as women and need to use female spaces and females in order to get that. An attempts by gender critical feminists to reason with them has been deemed transphobic .

Why do minorities object to segregation? That’s a tough one!

Say trans people somehow band together and campaign for third spaces.

You have a railway station with a set amount of space. Where does the money come from to change the layout and fund the works?

How much money has been thrown at Stonewall and other charities, who pissed it up a wall campaigning for men to have access to women’s spaces?

Imagine how far along we’d have been if instead of trying to force men into spaces where they don’t belong, they had instead invested in making positive changes towards provision of third spaces.

And that campaign would likely have ultimately been successful as it is a reasonable request.

most trans people aren't pervy fetishists who hate women

Can you even hear yourself?

I mean, I am really relieved that MOST are not pervs, phew! Guess I'll just have to suck it up if I come across one who is.

How about instigating that tried and tested safeguarding rule, no men in spaces set aside for women. Job done. No pervy fetishists who hate women.

Men aren't a minority.

The available evidence doesn't necessarily support that assertion...

Why do minorities object to segregation? That’s a tough one!

Nice try