Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

I do find it funny that people have unthinkingly bought into a belief that's been around about five minutes, and we're supposedly the odd ones for pointing out that it's completely nonsensical.

@PrincessCordelia

"This can’t be serious is there a link/website as this seems too crazy and like rage bait to me"

This is the problem people here the shocking facts and think it can't be true. But it is very much true

I spent nearly 4 hours in A&E two weeks ago. I was sitting immediately opposite the loos - one for women, one for men and one labelled unisex in the sense that it had a picture of both a man and a woman on the door. (There was a disabled loo round the corner.) In the whole time I was there not a single person used the unisex loo, although the other two were very busy.

Some TW (India Willoughby for starters) have said that they will go out of their way to use women's facilities, even if a unisex facility is closer.

It's not about 'we just want to pee in peace', at all.

IW is someone who actually believes they’re a ‘real’ woman and not trans because they have a passport that says F

So in their messed up thinking, nothing short of total validation as being exactly the same as the rest of us natural born women will be acceptable

IW appears to believe that he has grown a cervix and has previously offered (threatened?) to show it on national TV.

It goes back to the whole 'it's so ridiculous, it's hard to believe it's true' thing from people who are new to this/haven't really done a deep dive into all this. It starts off -

'Well, there's no harm in being kind and playing along with pronouns and names etc, is there? It's only being kind. A kind pretence of sorts. They know perfectly well they haven't changed sex, it's just to make them feel more comfortable'.

and ends up as -

'Oh hang on, there's now claims that human beings can actually change sex. And activists are co-opting rare medical conditions (which are sex specific) to claim that sex isn't a binary. And if I disagree with this obvious untruth, I will be told that I just clearly don't understand biology above Nat 5/GSCE and am a bigot who deserves to die in a grease fire'.

How do you then explain the absolute and total lack of care, empathy, kindness or even basic respect for said women? Particularly the women who are excluded from any space at all so that male people who have a trans identity can have their preferred choice from everything?

How are you going to square the circle of it's one way demands with threats and now an increasing number of women who have been harmed because... gosh, not all those male people were actually there in that women's space with good intentions.... and this crazy idea that they're all, without exception, one massed group think unit of lovely people who love women and really want to be with them?

Trans people need to find ways to be trans without it involving harming women. That's it. They cannot have women's spaces. Women are not a resource that can be commandeered for and by male people of whatever identity and with whatever reason.

Well said UpThePankhurst especially this:

Trans people need to find ways to be trans without it involving harming women. That's it. They cannot have women's spaces. Women are not a resource that can be commandeered for and by male people of whatever identity and with whatever reason.

I have no idea why my comment was deleted. I can only imagine it was because I made reference to a trans person who spoke about their desire for third spaces and how the increased provision of them has greatly improved their life. As such, I will exclude the details here, despite the great value of their input, which was freely shared.

The point I was making is that this post is somewhat unfair because there certainly are trans-identified people who want access to third spaces, and attempt to live ethically without invading male and female single sex space. Their voices are unsurprisingly rather silent, as TRAs also abuse trans-identified people who do not toe the party line. As with many things, the voices of the most entitled and abusive people predominate.

This is not to deny the significant issue of males trying to enter female spaces, but simply a request to remember that the views we see most strongly expressed by TRAs are not representative of every trans-identified person.

Excellent point.

'Trans people' are not one homogenous group: there are many needs, wishes, feelings, views, beliefs etc throughout. Trying to provide one solution or approach for all these groups under the umbrella is actively unhelpful to many, but oddly often very useful and enabling to some particular groups all of whom tend to be older males, and who often on social media express somewhat, er, interesting attitudes towards women, shall we say?

This has been used as an intentional lever on powerful people to strip away resources, rights and equality of thinking for women. You will always be presented with the 'ahhhh bless' picture and sad story, asking you 'would you really be so hard hearted as to put this male somewhere separate from non consenting women who would be distressed and have their illness/wellbeing severely aggravated by his presence and wish to use them as resources?'

As you are wangled into saying 'yes' to this one single individual, most likely with a well lit, carefully staged photo and no reference to their social media history, you are trampled as the door is slammed wide and Isla Bryson and Katie Dolotowski march in.

No male, regardless of how vulnerable or how distressed, or how beautiful, should ever be given women and their rights and spaces. Women just are not a resource for men. They're not. Any solution has to start from: women and their resources are off limits. Otherwise, let's get creative about what might work for those not wanting to use their sex based provision.

You're absolutely right.

Like I always say: you can't just take a bite out of the ideology, you gotta eat the whole thing.

👏 👏 👏

The trans umbrella was absolutely a savvy political strategy. It puts vulnerable, abused and unwell people in the same category as the fetishists and abusers. It makes it incredibly hard to tell one from the other.

It also exposes those vulnerable people to men who commit sexual offences at particularly high rates. Many of the vulnerable cohort are living with the effects of childhood abuse and trauma, and are at high risk of being revictimised.

Tragically but unsurprisingly, there are countless tales of trans-identified children and young people being groomed and sexually abused by older AGP males. Both boys and girls are at risk, but for obvious reasons it is particularly perpetrated against trans-identified girls.

It is absolutely possible to protect female single sex spaces, whilst also providing dignity and safety to at risk trans-identified people, so I’m always saddened to see approaches that don’t reflect that. Those who simply wish to live a quiet life without harassment and abuse would welcome such provision, and those left objecting will make their true agenda crystal clear.