Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

I'm more bothered about the physical presence of males in women's spaces than what they wear. What's your view on that @OnceinaMinion ?
I find your post quite unpleasant.

When the problem is described as transwomen being unsafe in the men’s toilet, why isn’t the correct reaction work to make it safe? Are there posters in the men’s toilets telling them transwomen are welcome in that space and should be treated as such?

It was a reaction to the bit about passing. Someone not dressing the same as everyone else makes you do a second look, so it prevents some transwomen from ‘passing’. I imagine it’s why transmen are more successful at passing as they are able blend and dress like men do appear to be a small man.
I also don’t want them in our bathrooms and I don’t care what they wear.

i clearly said third spaces are needed not that going into the womens is needed, twisting someone else words so u can get yourself angry and feel self righteous is so very lame.

Disabled people are a minority. Funnily enough as a member of that minority I'm eternally grateful when out for the toilet facilities provided to accommodate my disability when I'm not well enough to use the women's toilets. That doesn't make me feel segregated, it makes me feel included.

If TW and TM don't want to use the correct sexed toilets then unisex ones as well is the most logical solution to ensure that those who feel uncomfortable or unsafe sharing with either their own sex or the opposite sex that everyone has a loo they can use. That's not segregation. So why they object is beyond me. There will be plenty of trans allies who will want to use the unisex as well to show solidarity or because they just aren't fussed so thrans people won't be outing themselves by using them. But I don't want men, no matter how they feel about themselves, in my single sex female provided spaces.

It's an interesting point and I think whether "appearance" itself actually matters depends on whether you think a woman is female (hence some TW try to appear female- bodied) or whether you think a woman is male or female with an internal sense or feeling of something, in which case it follows that what you wear is irrelevant.

In practical terms what you wear makes no difference to whether you are male or female, which is what spaces like toilets must be based on.

I think gender-neutral spaces are actually springing up in more and more places as 3rd spaces. It could work well.

Quite. We should have Women's and Women Only spaces. Then the trans can go in the Women's can't they!!

Okay, thanks for explaining a bit more and I'm sorry for snapping at you. Maybe I took the bit about dressing like a 40 year old office worker from the early 90s the wrong way! 😂

If the truth be told, I'm still working out what I think about clothing choices. I really do believe that both sexes should wear what they like, if men want to wear skirts they should. But then I'm conflicted because I think they get more of a free pass if they do. For example, if I went to work looking like Tessa Ganserer I'd never be taken seriously
https://genevievegluck.substack.com/p/germany-trans-identified-male-politician

Anyway, I don't want to derail. I agree with PP
In practical terms what you wear makes no difference to whether you are male or female, which is what spaces like toilets must be based on.

I remember hearing Grayson Perry saying that when he went to cross dressing* groups they always thought that anyone who turned up in jeans and a jumper had taken it too far.

*as it was called then.

Oh no, I'd hate anyone to think I'm so very lame

I don't need to twist your words, when you write a post about how it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different, and even if exogenous estrogen doesn't make you nearly as weak as a female it does make you several times weaker then non trans males.

If TW are vulnerable to male violence (an assertion for which I have yet to see any evidence whatsoever) that is, frankly, not my problem. And if they are also weakened by the wrong sex hormones they choose to take (again, seen no evidence) also not my problem.

If men with special identities have a problem with men without special identities, that is a men problem for men to sort amongst themselves. It's nothing to do with me. Women are not the world's mum, we don't exists to solve everyone's problems, make everyone happy, to budge up, make room, be kind, or sacrifice our own wants and needs so others can have more. Not my circus.

They won't, any more than they use the unisex spaces which are available now. The use of the unasked and unconsenting women in the spaces is what makes the spaces desirable. They will try to go wherever then women go.

There was a TW who was allowed to change in the women's changing rooms of a women's sport (was it rugby? Can't remember) so the women started changing in their cars. TW complained. A women's book group lost their public space to meet because TW wouldn't stop trying to join in when asked not to, so the women started meeting in a members house instead. The TW called the police and wanted the police to force them to let him in!

It's not the space, or what you call the space, it's the women in the space.

I also think it would interesting, for
once, that people in this section of Mumsnet actually consider Transmen (female to male trans) when thinking about toilets… not just Transwomen, I think the issue is more complex when you consider Transmen in Mens loos

I saw a reddit thread where a transwoman was complaining about not being housed in the womens dorm at university. I believe in America

They had only started transitioning over the summer and still looked male (they admitted that)
They had to share a room with another student- the college apparently asked all the ladies if they would share and were told no

The accommodation offered was a mixed block with a gay male room mate who was supportive of trans rights. You would think a happy compromise

But no - the commentators decided that they should complain and force one of the ladies in the womens block to share with them as to do otherwise was against their human rights. They needed to contact the local trans rights movement, protest yadda yadda

This is the problem - their rights to be seen as female trumps everyone elses rights. There is no compromise

Have you RTFT?

Yes the aim is clearly to prevent women from having privacy, disempowering women so that men can have unfettered access to them

Why would a transman need to be in a mens loo if everyone uses the correct toilets for their sex?

Are you saying a transman , as a female, would be unsafe in toilets with males? If so why aren’t women/ females considered unsafe in a toilet with males if males are using the womens toilets because they are transwomen?

It isn't complex at all because it isn't an even comparison. The risk in these situations is on the basis of sex.

Transmen don't pose a risk to the men in those spaces because of their female bodies. They are simply not a viable threat to men. They also make the choice to take that risk.

Men in women's spaces pose a risk to all the women in those spaces because of their sex. Women aren't choosing to be put at risk in what should be their safe single sex spaces. They are being forced to go along with it.

Why should one group of men suddenly be immune from all societal rules, safeguarding and laws that apply to all other men just because they say they are women?

Your response doesn't fit what you originally said. If you want no pee on a loo seat, you won't get that in 'inclusive / gender free / unisex / omnisex loos', as you put it, yet you appeared to be recommending their installation & their use by women.

But it doesn't matter. I asked for reasoning & evidence, & there is none, so there's my answer.

Can you set out the complexities of the issue? It's important to have clarity if you want people to discuss it, otherwise people are just guessing what you mean.

Personally I don't think it's complex. Transmen are female and therefore entitled to use the women's facilities the same as me. The End.

It’s such an interesting debate. Because as a woman (or cis woman). If I need to go toilet, I need to go. And the separation of space is so that I can feel safe away from men during quite a private moment and to use female facilities such as the period bins etc.

If I really need to go toilet, I, even as a woman will use the third space which at the moment are the disabled toilet or parent units. I have absolutely no problem doing this and the fact that this debate is usually about trans women (as opposed to trans men) demanding these spaces is frustrating because most places now have said third space. Perhaps a small pub or similar wouldn’t. Some places only have 1 loo if they are that tiny (like a Starbucks or something).

If you need to go, you need to go. As a cis woman I have used the male toilets if the woman’s is out of order or if the queue has been so long I’m bursting. Usually if a man’s there (I don’t do this often btw), they will sarcastically point at the sign or gently tell me I’m in the wrong one.

I think men also appreciate having single sex places to urinate.

Clearly the issue isn’t access. As many have said it’s a validation issue. It’s a deep desire to be validated by using female facilities even if it puts other women in some sort of discomfort. Which is just unfair. Why should women’s voices be blocked out again - or do trans people see us as privileged and so we are not allowed to be part of this debate?

I think society should always have third spaces. As a mum, sometimes I need a third space. There are so many conditions in life that require it.

I think the toilet debate should be one of those where we accept that there should be single sex facilities to keep people safe. And a third space which can be used by absolutely anyone.

I’m new to this whole situation, but is this how it goes?

TW are natally male and may or may not have had surgery. In any event they’re rocking XY.

Then

People who are XY (men) are inherently dangerous to women, and that’s why we need female only spaces.

But then also

TW are also XY so they are therefore inherently dangerous to women and shouldn’t be in female only spaces

And Yet

TW argue they need to be in female only spaces because male ones are too dangerous.

So the only people who are dangerous to women are men, but not men who decide to identify as women.

At what point does their inherent danger as a consequence of their XY, disappear?

Men are dangerous to women except for the ones who pretend that they’re women too? Have I got that right?

This. All day long. 👏

That sounds about right. According to the trans activists all men who claim to be women are angels.

The very long list of men who claim to be women who murdered, raped, molested children or had a mass shooting, well those aren't really trans or we just made it all up.

Because we are silly stupid weak women but also powerful nazis.

Because TW are both proud to be trans and yet, simultaneously, literally women in every way possible.

Somehow this makes sense, but no-one has ever been able to explain to me how.

This