Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

Careful @nothingcomestonothing Your comment might be deleted for pointing that out. Mine just was!

The women's facilities are not for weak people, they're for women. Not men on medication, not old men, not disabled men, not injured men, not any men. It's not that difficult.

There is no recorded incident of TW being harmed by men in men's facilities, but there are of women and children being harmed by TW in women's facilities. How many harmed women is acceptable to you, as the price for men with special identities to feel safe? Because for me it's none.

Deleted for quoting the statistics of His Majesty's Prisons Service??

That said, I’ve yet to meet a transwomen who passed.

I could count on one hand the number of MTFs I'm aware of who pass even in a picture. IRL they don't sound like women or come across as women. There's always something off.

I didn't quote the statistics but the point was the same
I must've used a banned word

Replace ‘trans’ in the thread title with ‘black’ or even ‘gay’, and you’ll see.

No, because black women and gay women are women. Males are not.

If you're saying that trans people should be able to use the toilet for their sex, then I fully agree. They shouldn't be made to use a third space.

The concept of "passing" is an odd thing to bring into the discussion (as a pp did) as it rests on the idea that to be a woman is to be female - an unacceptable belief for many TRAs (not those that accept they are male but wish to be female).

I dont understand it either really, but the people here who say we only need two are equally delusional. I try to use the mens room when i can, but a lot of the time i hear "your in the wrong bathroom" because a man assumes im a woman, and so i leave and wait until its empty because i dont know how he'll react to me saying im trans. if women couldnt convince men to be nice in 10,000 years how are tw supposed to have convinced them in 50. it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different, and even if exogenous estrogen doesn't make you nearly as weak as a female it does make you several times weaker then non trans males.

I mean, whipping a cock out and weeing into the urinal should do it TBH...

Women aren't your mother, we're not here for you to hide behind.

Katie Dolatowski springs to mind (unfortunately) on this thread. Escalated his criminal activity, first voyeurism (no meaningful sanction for that) then attacked a girl in the women's toilets. Then put in a women's centre when released. Charming 6ft 5 criminal - why should he get to be in women's spaces?

Why should that girl be traumatised / assaulted for the sake of men's feelings?

Every trans identified man who uses women's toilets is placing their comfort (or whatever) above a child's right to be safe from people like Dolatowski.

The good men stay out so the bad men stand out.

I would RATHER completely mixed sex for all, all the time, than the current situation where it's only the men who won't take no for an answer in the women's. However, I would much prefer single sex toilets for dignity, privacy and (women's and children's) safety then a third space for anyone who wants to use it / doesn't believe sex is real.

Incidentally TRAs would hate mixed sex for everyone. Men like Dolatowski would then have to risk the fathers of the girls they want to abuse being there too. The decent men, the men who see things for what they are and who aren't keen on their partners and daughters being used as unconsenting props at best.

It is truly remarkable isn't it. It requires those photos to be ever so carefully curated as well. And usually some extensive post production work.

I don't even think of people as 'being trans' I have to say, What I see is people 'presenting in a manner associated with the opposite sex'.

it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different,

In my experience this is just not true. There are violent men yes.

I canvassed my male family and friends at a gathering last summer: how would you react to a transwoman using the gents when you are there?

The response was pretty well "no reaction, men go in, wee, go out."

And "men hate everyone who's different" is a dreadful statement.

Men who seem to quite like it when there is a third category offered in sporting events where there is a cash prize. It means they can 'win' even if they would be quite far down the rankings in the men's category. Women are still going to get beaten in a third category.

if women couldnt convince men to be nice in 10,000 years how are tw supposed to have convinced them in 50. it makes sense to say tw are vulnerable to male violence because men hate everyone who's different,

Why is it down to women to convince men to be nice, it is not the role of women to solve everything. What a ludicrous statement. Men have held the levers of power and the finance to enable that for those 10,000 years - the buck stops with them. What's prevented men sorting this out - incompetence? apathy?

Men do not hate everyone who is different, all the men I know (and I know a lot) from across the classes, religions, ethnicities have NO, yes that is correct, NO problem with TW in male spaces and would stand up for the TW should a.n.other male in there object to their presence.

The idea that TW who use male spaces are being beaten to a pulp is bullshit, utter bullshit there is not ONE recorded incident of that happening.

As a woman I want spaces that only have biological females and small children ( with their female adult) in. If transwomen had grown up as actual women they wouldn't have to be told why biological women don't want biological men in their spaces. They are men through and through and have no idea what it is like to feel vulnerable in a space .Transwomen are not women they are a sub set of men.

I honestly don't get the naivity of those that can't see that this isn't just about a small number of men who think their special feelings make them women.

It's about the complete removal of ALL female only spaces, services and sports. It is removal of all laws already in place that protect females on the basis of their SEX. Not any made up gender identities. The removal of women's right to define themselves as a separate sex class with unique needs based on their sexed bodies.

You cannot allow 'some' men in. It's all or nothing. So why are the men's feelings given priority over the very real danger to women and girls by taking away their single sex spaces?

When men are allowed to redefine woman solely because they feel like it, but women aren't allowed to define themselves separately to these men, it shows exactly which sex has all the power.

There are NO valid reasons why this particular subset of men must use female facilities.

The solution to them not liking using the men's isn't women being forced to accommodate them. It's men's issue to fix their own behaviour towards non conforming men.

The entire premise of gender identity ideology falls apart under even the most basis scrutiny. That's why they won't ever defend it here. All they have is emotional blackmail and threats.

Like the ploppers who come with their cries that "mumsnet is a hotbed of transphobia" giving no actual coherent, logical argument for their ideology.

What exactly does a mentally unwell, vulnerable teenage girl with dysphoria have in common with an adult male who gets sexually aroused at the thought of himself as a woman?
Such a bizarre thing that these two very different groups with very different motives are now being placed in the same category.

There are so many filters on those photos. They ways look weirdly 'off'. You can always, always tell in real life. You can tell from the far end of the street/ office/ wherever. A woman,no matter how butch, still moves likes a woman. A man can never replicate that.
We were waiting for a member of our walking group to turn up. That member is a trans woman.Someone in the group said "Oh thats X coming up the hill". New member who had not met that member ( and had no idea of the situation)said "Nah, that's a bloke". Yes it it but heaven help anyone who admits it.

As we well know according to TRA’s misgendering or looking at them funny is literal violence so that’s more the reality that someone did a double take at seeing a 6 foot bloke in a leather mini and fishnets in the ladies and thats enough for them to scream ‘OMG transphobia we’re not safe’

@MadeOfAllWork
The argument though would be that you haven’t noticed all the transwomen who do pass. Yes, I’ve noticed transwomen but how many transwomen were there that I didn’t notice because they passed.

This line of thought has always seemed flawed to me. It's like anything in nature, the extremes are rare, and the less extremes are more common. Things fall on a bell curve.

You could say there were a lots of 7 foot tall people around and I just hadn't seen them, and it would be totally possible that by chance I've just not encountered the 7" people. BUT if that were the case I'd expect to have seen way more 6'10" people than I ever have. And 6'8" people should be absolutely everywhere.

Completely passing is logically far harder than very nearly passing, and so if there were a decent number of completely passing people out there, there should be loads and loads of people who very nearly pass but don't, and also people who do completely pass but we know they're trans because they're open about it. Where are those people?

TRAs tell us that cubicles keep women safe from men that come into women's spaces and it doesn't matter who the person in the next cubicle is. Somehow this does not apply to transwomen using the gents, the cubicle couldn't possibly provide any protection and having to piss next to another bloke is life threatening.

I'm a woman and no ,mistaking me for anything else.

I have never had a problem using a men's bathroom. I think the only time anyone commented was to say they would 'guard' the door so I wasn't disturbed.

Reminds me of one of the marathons (Boston?) that made a 3rd catergory for the non binaries.

The parent of one of the female non binaries complained, without a hint of irony, that it was unfair and that they should have a non binary 'male' category and a non binary 'female' category, because their child had obviously no fucking chance of winning against men.

So the men are able to compete or cheat and win in all 3 categories. Hurrah for 'inclusion' at the expense of actual women!

ive never seen one who actually dresses like a woman, especially a middle aged woman. It’s some weird outdated view of what they wear.
Tight clothes, inappropriate shoes, always a skirt.
There was a young man who went into a local shopping centre every lunchtime and walked about, looking back I see it was for attention as they were never shopping, just walking round and round. Anyway he dressed like a 40 year old office worker from the early 90s, he must have been about 20.