Does anyone actually fully support trans people in women's changing rooms and loos?

[bottomsup12]

Just curious really? I see a lot of aggressive stances (Owen Jones eg) pro this on twitter etc. I don't get it.
The only reason I can think of is that it's never actually happened to them and they imagine it will be fine but when it actually happens a few times they might start seeing sense?

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

I don’t support it.

It’s not the same as women in men’s changing rooms.

Men in women’s changing rooms are an actual physical threat as well as making women uncomfortable in terms of changing in front of them.
women in men’s changing rooms are only the latter.

I’m still sure they wouldn’t like it though.

Having found myself in a loo with someone who was clearly male despite their ra-ra skirt and glittery makeup, and been very uncomfortable about knowing I was alone and isolated, I sure as fuck don’t.

Nope, not for one second. I'm sure most are perfectly lovely people but as usual there are those who will exploit any chance they can to harm others in some way. Born with a penis - you're a bloke, today, tomorrow and always.

No cos it’s wrong.

An acquaintance was giving out about this, all for total acceptance of self identification. I asked her to think about how she would feel if she was in a communal changing room with her young daughters and someone with full cock and balls was naked next to them all. She said it wouldn’t bother her, other people’s genitals are of no interest to her, and it was me that had a problem.

Id like to say that we agreed to differ but in fact I said she was full of shit and she told me to fuck off and we haven’t spoken properly since.

Loos have cubicles so I don't care about that. Women's changing rooms are different, imo. I get naked in changing rooms and I've no wish to see a willy in there or for a willy owner in there. I'm generally for trans rights and if someone wishes to call themselves by the gender they identify it makes no difference to me. But a woman's changing room is for women's genitals only.

I've been in a "gender neutral" toilet (not individual ones, just the ladies with a new sticker on the door) and the bloke who came out of the cubicle next to me looked both confused and embarrassed. (But not scared). I don't think a lot of men would find it particularly comfortable.

So she's fine with someone with male genitalia seeing her teen daughter get changed? I've got boys but I'd NOT be fine with a woman watching them change

I don’t want to be in gender neutral toilets. Men’s toilets ming compared to women’s cos they wee all over the place.

(not all men some men blah blah)

I am looking forward to seeing the answers OP.

Apparently. Full of shit, like I say.

No

There's always wee on the toilet seats in unisex toilets which annoys me!

I get there's more of a harmful threat when men are in ladies versus ladies in the men's but I still think the men would not like it.

ALSO WHY do some people see to aggressively agree with the pro trans movement??? I just don't get why

Because transactivists /queer theorists are busy destroying the social contract. Redefining safeguarding children as right wing bigotry, calling women wanting single sex spaces to undress etc pearl clutching transphobes and so on.
The majority of people respect the social contract so that society functions with the majority being safe. Breaking this down requires the tactics of bullying & intimidation - which is what we're seeing on the part of transactivists. Making people so scared that they act against their better judgement and the interests of children, women and the vulnerable. Resulting in the bullies dominating society for their own ends.

Ask yourself who benefits from the destruction of social norms?

Yes

For the men who are aggressively pro it I wonder how they would feel is women just started flooding into their changing rooms and bathrooms ?

I imagine some men would in reality be extremely uncomfortable/feel guilty if they were in a changing room with an unrelated female. Especially if said female was underage or very young. Not because they are predators/dodgy but because they aren't and because there is something inherently wrong about that scenario which "decent" men would be aware of.

But decent men probably wouldn't be aggressively pro the breaking down of women's boundaries anyway. I fear some men wouldn't have any problem with it and ironically they are the exact reason that spaces are separate anyway.

I'm not interested in their trans status. Just their sex. I will never support any man in ladies facilities, anywhere, regardless of special identities or body modifications.

It isn't just the risk factor. It's the male gaze. The risk of my DD or her friends or my 70+ DM or once upon a time my grandma who was seen naked by one single man in her entire life being exposed to male genitals and having to forsake their dignity. It's also a form of assault to me to be coerced into sharing those spaces by someone who is clearly gaining sexual excitement from that sharing, and anyone who has ever spent 12 seconds on the internet knows there's vast numbers of men getting extreme sexual excitement from just that. No.

I wonder about people who do support it. In my book, whoever does not give consent ref their bodies, nakedness or vulnerability wins. If a million women say yes and ten say no, it's no.

If it has a penis it should not be allowed anywher that is for women only.

It is something you can only support if you believe that men are more valuable than women, and that freedom of choice and self expression for men matters more than equality of access for women. It means in fact that some women must have nothing so that men can choose from everything as some women simply cannot use mixed sex spaces regardless of whether or not the male person chooses to identify as male. It is fundamentally male supremacist in a very binary, sex based way.

And that is even if you do not want to acknowledge the elephant which is that some of the self expression of the males in question is sexual, using the women as non consenting props and resources for their experience, which is abusive. And that you do not have to look very far to find written experiences by male people with TQ+ identities talking about the enjoyment and need for power and control, and knowing that women cannot escape them or say no to them. Should women be forced to submit to being used for sexual purposes and/or coercive control by male people as the price of being able to use a loo or changing room, just because it makes the male person temporarily feel good?

It does not equally impact on men in men's spaces, because while they may be uncomfortable at the presence of a female - and that matters, everyone's privacy, dignity and comfort matters, not just trans people's - to put it baldly, females are not a sexual threat to males. Nor do they have the sexual, violent or predatory behaviours common in the male sex class. There is no fear involved, and the risk of sexual use or predation is nearly zero.

I don't support men in female only spaces and that includes men who are impersonating women.

I was masturbated at by a naked man in the women's showers at a public swimming pool once (I was naked too). He wasn't supposed to be there, but he came in anyway, presumably because he enjoys the fear of the naked women he masturbates at. I don't support anything that gives men like him easier access to women's spaces. His genitalia bothered me greatly and I don't care if @Daveandroger 's acquaintance thinks that makes me some kind of bigot.

Yep!

^^ This

My Labour MP's aide/ PA does. She says 'Oh, there have always been men in women's toilets and women have always dealt with it. You're being over sensitive.' She has some idea that all TWs are like the drag queens she loves on Drag Race. Her whole family, kids and all, are addicted to Drag Race. They're all gay, according to her, and there's nothign for women to be scared of. It's just harmless fun and I'm a misery-guts feminist.

This woman is standing as a councillor in the LA elections and if she wins, will take her attitude into the council with her and try to squash any attempts to keep local public loos single sex.

Loos have cubicles so I don't care about that.

But what about the bit where the sinks are? It’s an isolated area (unless anyone else is around) and the male bodied arguably have more access to the female bodied there as it would be normal for more than one person to be in that area and completely not normal for someone to be in a cubicle with you.

And that’s aside from the principle of the thing.

A very similar thing happened to me years ago in the toilet of a quite remote railway station. I do not think the perpetrator was trans. But definitely a pervert.

I made a massive shouty fuss about it. But it really brought home to me that many women would not have been able to yell and shout in that situation. You just don't know what your fight or flight response is going to be until you are actually in that situation for real. For example, my elderly gran - would she have felt able to shout? Or my young niece?

TRAs' response to this sort of situation nowadays is "but see, men are going to go into women's toilets anyway". But the point is, back then (1990s) it was quite clear that this bloke was in the wrong place. Now it isn't.

I do not accept men in women's spaces.