Why are separate spaces for trans people unacceptable (to trans people)?

[Superlambaanana]

There's a thread on AIBU about people's network's views on the trans debate and a poster suggested trans people ought to campaign for separate spaces - trans toilets, trans sporting events etc.

Is anyone campaigning for this? And if not why not? I'm not clued into the detail of the debate and am genuinely interested. Is it just impractical (cost, insufficient numbers for competitive sport) or is it ideologically unacceptable?

Narcissism, misogyny, delusions and sometimes AGP fetishism amplified by internet bubbles and captured institutions. Nothing but complete validation/capitulation will do.

I feel that the rise of inclusive / gender free / unisex / omnisex loos etc. will end up being what non trans women end up using long term. The trans women can have the women's washroom, the rest of us just want somewhere without pee on the seat and a decently lot mirror.

non trans women

Women.
We are not non men.

I agree

I think normal(? - Non AGP) transwomen - want to use the women's toilets as they feel that that is consistent with where they belong and to use anything else would be restrictive and outing
To be fair where at work we have mens/women and uni sex - you rarely see anyone using the unisex - i think some of the men go in to poo so everyone else avoids it

@bringbacktheladiesloos- I have absolutely no idea- because trans men are largely silent on the whole thing.

Can you explain why there wouldn't be 'pee on the seat' in a unisex loo? That's not an argument I've heard before.

Or why the mirrors would be low if men are using them too? Things aren't generally designed with women in mind: at one place I worked, even the ladies loo must've been designed by men because we could just about see our eyebrows in the bottom of the mirrors.

Since when has being trans been a fetish

Replace ‘trans’ in the thread title with ‘black’ or even ‘gay’, and you’ll see.

Being trans is not a fetish

this is a very mean spirited and disingenuous thread (although might not have been started in that spirit, original post seems to have got lost)

Most organisations have limited resources, and so to expect separate provisions for men, women, trans women and trans men, is simply beyond the capacity of lots of groups. For one example, a small community theatre would never be able to provide designated toilets or changing rooms for all 4 of those groups of people. Neither could a local leisure centre.

If people campaigned for the provision of separate trans spaces, this would effectively remove trans people's presence in many community spaces. Its far easier to include trans people into existing spaces in most situations, with proper thought and planning.

That's why most campaigns are about inclusion. Because most people (and most trans people) aren't elite athletes, or in the top income bracket. Most of us are using facilities and services with limited budgets and we're pragmatic and realistic!

"Can you explain why there wouldn't be 'pee on the seat' in a unisex loo? That's not an argument I've heard before.

Or why the mirrors would be low if men are using them too? Things aren't generally designed with women in mind: at one place I worked, even the ladies loo must've been designed by men because we could just about see our eyebrows in the bottom of the mirrors."

You are reading too much into this - all I want from any loo I use is for it to be clean (no pee on the seat being a particular essential) and decent lighting by the mirror so I can check hair / teeth etc. It doesn't matter if that's an aeroplane, train, workplace, bar or gym or what is written on the door.

Not even remotely comparable.
Black women and gay women (lesbians) are women and so belong in women's spaces. Trans women are men and so do not belong in women's space.

What a ridiculous and offensive argument.

Not for all trans people, but certainly for plenty.
And if you want to tell me that those ones are not really trans, then please enlighten me as to how we are supposed to know which are the real "nice" trans ladies, and which are the fetishistic AGPs who want access to female spaces for nefarious reasons?
Best just to keep all males out eh?

There is a male transitioner who has recently released a book discussing being trans and their motivations in having surgery. This is an extract from a part adapted in a national newspaper.

Where does this leave me, eight years after I walked into Charing Cross Hospital, to an operating theatre where my body was changed irrevocably? I no longer think I am a woman; women are female while I am male.

I have also discovered something deep-seated about myself — that what prompted me to transition was not, in fact, the desire to be a woman but that I was sexually aroused by the thought of myself as a woman.

This is an unusual and little understood sexual condition known as autogynephilia.

Google that last word.

Taken from here

That's why most campaigns are about inclusion

By removing female only spaces etc to accommodate the wants of a subset of men who dislike the fact they are men, without giving a flying fuck about the rights or protections of actual women and girls who need those spaces to remain single sex.

Funny how some men are allowed to say they don't feel safe in men's toilets but women aren't allowed to object when those men want to be in their spaces.

These are two cartoons in a much longer sequence, but they made me smile. As has already been said: they don't want their own space, they want ours and they want us to be there to validate them / be intimidated by them / experience their power at being able to do this at all.

(The cartoons are quite large, you will have to click on them to see them in full).

@Littlepinkstarsbyradish I've never heard anyone suggest organisations need to provide 4 toilets or changing rooms.
If you think spaces should be segregated by sex you need 2, if you believe spaces should be segregated by gender identity then you'll need a couple of hundred.

If you believe like many people do, that providing sex separation is the first priority, but accept that some people for whatever reason are uncomfortable with spaces for their own sex then a third gender neutral space, that can be used by anyone, is often suggested as a compromise.

I saw a TM interviewed and they were asked about a third space, eg accessible toilet.

Apparently that would be, "demeaning",

Ok for me though, an actual woman with a disability.

Yes it wasn't intended to be decisive. It seems any genuine question about trans issues automatically produces heated debate. The issues are complicated and I understand trans people are concerned about their safety but I believe the threat to women and the future of womanhood is real.

I thought cost might be a factor but I don't buy that it is why trans people don't campaign for third spaces. A huge amount of money is spent making statutory disability adaptions to existing and new buildings. So de-specing disabled loos is not an option and trans spaces could be the same.

When I still lived at home in a touristy bit of Ireland, there were a couple of ordinary local bars and then this god awful place that took coach trips of Americans from Dublin and Galway, for the allegedly trad “Oirish” experience. After a while something weird happened. The tourists knew that the Oirish place was all cod, and avoided it and instead went in the local pubs, and frankly pissed off the locals. So the locals started drinking in the Oirish place to get away from them.

I think of this when I read about third spaces and “other” toilets. The TW want the authentic experience. The actual women will end up being forced out to keep away from them.

because you would be outing so many people who have lived in their identity for years- there are plenty of people who are trans and passing, contrary to the popular mumsnet belief that all trans people are men in drag 🙄. You would be demanding people disclose a part of their identity that is so open to personal risk and harm- just see the comments in this thread- just to go to the loo.

I’ve never been exposed to male genitalia in public toilets- I have in bus stations, in my own home, at a children’s event.

read the Trans Issue by Shon Faye, it’s a great perspective on the reality of trans existence and the barriers in place for many people who don’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth.

Ok, so I see that there is a reasonable argument about trans women being concerned about their safety if forced to use the mens toilets. Though it doesn't compute that women should therefore be put at risk by being forced to share theirs.

And I can see how a unisex loo could become a target for attack. My preference in life is that we deal with attackers rather than limit the freedoms of people who are targets of attackers. So for example, add cctv as a statutory requirement for third space loos. And spend money educating men so they don't attack others.

But the 'fear of attack' argument doesn't seem to be the whole story with trans people. They appear to want to be genuinely seen and treated as something they are patently not - the opposite sex. I just cannot understand why they don't want to be accepted and celebrated for what they actually are.

It just brings me back to the original point that trans people start out traumatised by being forced to live as something they're not ('wrong body') but demand to live as something they're not (opposite sex). They appear to be missing the point that the goal for all of us is achieving societal acceptance of what and who we each are - exactly what each of us is, not a version adapted for easy categorisation by others.

The arguments I’ve seen are usually emotive and include:

1. Segregating trans people is like apartheid.

This is of course, untrue. The solution for apartheid was for all spaces to be used by both black and white people. Transactivists don’t want to do away with segregation; they want it to remain but to have the right to choose which category they are in.

2. It’s outing

In most cases, this is nonsense. It’s generally perfectly obvious which sex men are.

3. It’s demeaning

This is emotive, of course. What “it’s demeaning”really means when a man claims it is “you are demonstrating the fact that you don’t really believe I’m a woman”.

4. You can’t force us to use it/how are you going to enforce it/will you be doing a genital check for everyone?

This, of course, is the crux of it. These men want access to women’s spaces and are willing to take it. They are telling us they will take it, whatever women want, and they try to shame us by suggesting it’s us who are “obsessed with genitals”.

Currently society is aiding and abetting them in doing it. There have never been laws regarding which toilet men and women used, but it was understood that no decent man would invade women’s spaces, so any man who did could reasonably be assumed to have bad intentions and could be forcefully removed if necessary.

Now, as seen in the Wi Spa incident, random men will no longer help women when a predatory man has invaded their space and will now argue that “he is probably a woman, so you should stop complaining.”