Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 7

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

If I were a government minister looking to make savings on the education / research budget (or whoever funds this mob) I'd know where to start.

I'm curious why she didn't want to name the confirmed speakers, who pulled out.

What am i missing there?

Checking in, thanks everyone again.

Thank you @ickky and all.

Please can someone help me out with who RG is?

I wondered that too. DO we know who the planned speakers were?

At least we now know about Mickey Mouse Degrees.
These are bastards that design and mark them.

Richard Garside of CCJS

you're not being 'kind' to trans people if you deny the very research that will help ensure adequate healthcare.

I'm sorry but that research can't be spoken about until it has been reframed in terms of giving healthcare to women who have penises and XY chromosomes and men who have XX chromosomes and vaginas.

(Not a quote from the tribunal)

Thanks :)

TT Commentary

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1714564560433053992.html

From Tribunal Tweets
[Re email from DD during conf cancellation discussion:]

BC: You set out that there are 2 camps, you saw "one camp says TWAW, the whole world basically, and then there's RG in the other camp" - you know what the dispute is
DD this is kind of me starting to find out.

'TWAW, the whole world basically.'
Academic rigour anyone?

😮I think this needs a whole new thread of its own!

I wonder if the smartiepants at the OU who proposed the “Hey gender neutral chums, let’s bombard that pesky tribunal with as many witnesses as we can squeeze in because we is smart and will overwhelm them with our intellectual superiority” strategy are gradually coming to realise that having one or two witnesses who are a bit vague in recollections of time and place could be ascribed to individual failures of memory, but to have witness after witness after witness sounding like participants at an Alzheimer’s sufferers tea party reflects badly on the institution, not the individuals.

As a strategy it has backfired spectacularly.

BC: I suggest you went down an internet rabbit hole of only one side of debate and came out with negative impression

CT: No bcs I went in with open mind. And I read much on GC side - Trans, Material Girls. Wanted to understand whole thing, made sure not to cherry pick

(From TT)

How oh how oh HOW could you possibly read Trans and Material Girls and STILL decide you’re with the gender ideologues?

DD's witness statement positions her very much as someone caught between colleagues and trying to balance their rights as members of her department. I wonder how realistic that is? Other witnesses have said she was talking with them about Jo which doesn't sound like taking an even approach

You can dehydrate marshmallows?! Don't they just melt?

So, as I understand it, Richard Garside has for a long time held the view that transwomen should not be housed in women’s prisons, and also pointed out that even if you held the opposite view, you should be aware women’s prison are, for a variety of reasons, appealing to men, and you should therefore also be aware that, assuming you believe that it is possible to pretend to be a transwoman, some men would pretend in order to gain these advantages.

This would seem a pretty mainstream view to me.

As the SNP found out.

I'm going to suggest she didn't really read them properly

Only here on MN would you get serious analysis of an Employment Tribunal in progress, Star Wars, Gilbert and Sullivan, Tom Lehrer, Bingo, Snacks, Legal and HR ,commentary and How to Dry Marshmallows. Just a few examples amongst a myriad of other asides.😂

To be fair, if she's read them she's done more towards finding a balanced argument than I have,

I reckon you could very well be right viques.

Do they not see how utterly embarrassing this is? Are they so blinkered? Who the hell would want any of them to teach/lecture with such shaky memory, how do they remember the subject they are trying to teach?

It would be funny if it wasn't for the awful bullying they meted out to Jo.

These people are coming across as utter idiots. No wonder anti intellectualism is rife when you've got the like of this person representing what is supposed to be brains.

DD: ... solidarity...

BC: you're quibbling around the edges there

DD: Yeah, okay

Finally in