Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 7

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

You may attend in person or remote viewing has been quite limited but you can request log in details from

Email
[email protected]

Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

Ask for access link and pin and please give your name and address in the email as they check when you connect to the tribunal.

The clerk will ask you (in a private remote room) to put your camera on to verify, this involves looking at you, but no ID is needed. You may turn off your camera after this pointless and unnecessary process.

Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

It simply defies logic, she's completely on the trans side and evidently knows all the support lingo, so how could she not know what she was opposed to?

You're forgetting the rules, @SinnerBoy. People who hold Bad Views are by definition Bad People. And any views held by Bad People are by definition Bad Views. There is no need for Good People to investigate the details of the Bad View (indeed, doing so is discouraged for fear of contamination; hearing or reading the words of a Bad Person has much the same effect as touching the bog of eternal stench). All that is needed is for the Good Person to oppose any Bad View they are directed to by Those Who Know.

And TBF, if we took away everything that defies logic they'd have very little left.

This one? It's always the super privileged, navel gazing ones

Lest we forget that Jo is 'very very powerful', but also 'very vulnerable'. 🙄

Schrodinger really is the father of this movement.

LOL!

Ah - you flatter me, my dear.

They comprise 0.02% of the general population, but apparently 99.98% of OU staff, it seems.

I hope BC has picked up on this.

This case could have some consequences whoever wins. In the last lot of tribunal tweets (late morning today, DD evidence) an academic wrote to their boss arguing that a letter written by other academics to the Times "could impact Stonewall Equality Index". So is it still reasonable to claim that the Stonewall Equality Index has no impact on academic freedom?

Going back to our earlier witness. Is anyone else a little confused that CT educated herself on both sides of the debate before signing the open letter by reading Trans and Material Girls , the latter not having been published till the following month.

Yes, this was discussed upthread.

It's a very fast moving thread! I took about 20 minutes out towards the end and only just caught up.

Sorry Binturong - the Bad Views, Bad People rule slipped my mind.

BC: what do you mean?
DD: No notice
BC: But ppl don't have to run everything past you
DD: No but there are 2 trans ppl in dept
BC: You are saying this issue must be treated differently from anything else
DD: Was thinking duty of care. And being courteous.

it's so blatant. Duty of care to 2 people. Courteous to 2 people.

Just popping my head up to say thanks all, I've been following TT and the comments on here. Yes, what a lot of collective amnesia! And new phones too, the old I chucked dropped my phone into the sea defense eh 😂

But seriously, with these contradictions between what they say they didn't say vs they did in their WS, lots of 'I didn't mean it that way', selective amnesia and outright 2 facedness, this must be a win for Jo surely? How could they see otherwise when it's bloody obvious these people are a pack of lying weasels?

I remember at the time wishing that they had had somewhere else that everyone could have moved to, leaving Little Miss Pureheart stuck to the table on her own in an empty room.

Or put a tea towel over her, like a budgie . . .

There was a brilliant meme attached to that photo, something like "KS is so evil that she brought the decapitated head of one of her foes to a debate"....

😂😂😂

BC: You say here many colleagues upset. Not just you and Dr Downes. Overwhelming opposition to JP.
DD: No. 3 people at core - out of dept of 30. Many still not involved. Most just wanting to support everyone, JP and Abby and Leigh too.
DD: Much support for JP too and that her views of interest.

So 3 people out of a department of 30 have managed to go out of their way to get 300 more people to sign a letter, despite there apparently being much support for Jo and her views (in direct contradiction to another witness), and they don't think this was disproportionate or discriminatory???

A Tweet i saw at the time (of the silly mare sitting on the floor), was that Kathleen and the chap interviewing her were like sitting there like punch-drunk parents having to watch Frozen again for the 14th time that day.

I thought that too. Just go to a different room. And let her sit there in splendid, but sticky, isolation

In the OU Christmas panto version of this, Leigh Downes will dress as a sorcerer going round shouting "New phones for Old, New phones for Old".
Widow Twanky will be renamed Widow TWAWnky.

A bit 'put Frozen on again if you must, dear'.

Talking of Doc Stock, I have very limited access to X, but this seems like a big deal

I hope BC has picked up on this.

YY, as @Zebracat says, she can't have read both books before she posted, as they hadn't both been published, and she claims to have researched both sides with an open mind, before she made her comments about hate groups a few days later than she "didn't really know what gender critical beliefs were" as she claims when the GCRN was launched. I think it was Trans that was published in July, not Material Girls though.

And she's sitting too close to the telly, as well! As if to put a neon light on her brattiness. 😂