Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 7

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R
OU Departments & Networks:
HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
KS - Kevin Shakesheff. PVC for Research and Innovation
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21😇
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager

Witness for JP:

SE - Professor Sarah Earle, Head of the HWSRA

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far - https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Prof Jo Phoenix Witness Statement (scroll to bottom of page and download)

https://jophoenix.substack.com/p/phoenix-v-open-university?sd=pf

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Thread 3 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4917480-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-3

Thread 4 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4918479-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-4

Thread 5 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4919223-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-5

Thread 6 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4921308-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-6

She could hold two opposing views in her head during one day.

This could be the reason for the amnesia.

Lunch break until 2pm

I was struck that ST (at first glance, allegedly, IMHO, for entertainment purposes only etc) would not look out of place in Durham E Wing.

@Fink - Thank you. This is what I've been trying to do. (Will put other stuff in DM so as not to de-rail)

I’ve not caught up with the thread yet, but from what I heard of DD, it’s OMG the hurty feelz going on in that department, including the HoD

I'm afraid it's like that just stop oil protester though who glued herself to the stage at that meeting like a little girl in assembly, and turned out to have spent her teens at an overseas boarding school jetting around the world at frequent intervals.

Passionate shouting about and owning the costumes of and scolding everyone else about while using All The Words does not, in this political movement, ever equate to actual values, beliefs and commitment to living them. It's mostly about liking the feelz and dominating/shouting at other people for doing everything wrong.

BC: You'd spoken to JP. You've told us you thought then that she was upset. You were telling your superiors she was upset. And in your correspondence with others you are expressing a view directly at odds with what you tell your superiors

DD: No. You can hold conflicting views at the same time. JP is v powerful in certain ways and also vulnerable. And I could hold those views in my head on a single day.

Perhaps that's the problem. All those conflicting views on JP are using up the space in DD's head which means there is no room for looking at or holding the wide range of views on the GI/GC debate.

When someone tells you something and you reply exactly, it now means that you don't necessarily agree with them.

Fucking logic of this shit ideology. It makes fools out of anyone who advocates for it

I’m getting two Lewis Carroll quotes in my head:

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean- neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things."

“Why, sometimes I've believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”

I had to take a call, who is RW?

TT commentary

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1714592405951816178.html

Only the hurty feels of the 2 super speshul colleagues, though.

Jo can go fuck herself, obviously.

When they have trans day of remembrance, or pride month or anything to do with LGBT, do they seriously think they should run it past every gender critical person in the University, or in this case Jo's network?

They're incapable of seeing the symmetry in any of this.

Because the world is made up of 2 people.

Them and everyone else.

Both oven and dehydrator method. In case people want an activity while WFTCHTJTM.

Had a smudge on my reading glasses, read that as ovum

If DD was unsure if Jo was vulnerable, or not, shouldn't she have taken the path of least harm to her, jic? Not rolled the dice and thought 'fuck it'!

🤣
Did BC keep a straight face?

Now I know how to dehydrate marshmallows, but I'm still unsure why I would want to. Perhaps all this confusion and loss of memory is contagious.

Haha, @Shortpoet I had literally just found that exact quote and copied it to post here.

And the other line - ‘The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master-- that's all.’

Thank you for posting the link.

The writing style is atrocious. As is the tone. But interested to see Deborah Drake among the authors - all 'White cisgender women' members of the group.

It appears to have all been achieved via a WhatsApp group, although sadly one must presume the history is lost as everyone has new phones.

You are both quoting my favourite parts!

We really have slipped down a rabbit-hole and through a mirror into a world where this case can take place. Will Jo get to stand up at the end and say 'you are all just a pack of cards?'

I’d forgotten that bit about which is to be master. We’re certainly seeing that being played out here.

Much of that book is Lewis Carroll as an academic taking the mickey out of other maths academics, such as the quarternian tea party where nothing can ever happen any more because they've fallen out with time.

I'm really seeing his point.

Will Jo get to stand up at the end and say 'you are all just a pack of cards?'

Oh god I hope so. I really do. They really all are just a pack of cards.

If not actually, then I hope she can spiritually through BC’s comments in the submissions.

Couldn't be arsed with the dehydrating of marshmallows and have no eggs so have gone the simple route

Going back to our earlier witness. Is anyone else a little confused that CT educated herself on both sides of the debate before signing the open letter by reading Trans and Material Girls , the latter not having been published till the following month. Perhaps Kathleen Stock sent her an advance copy?

DD made a repeated point that there were concerns that JP was muscling in on other people's areas - Avi and DDownes I think? - and that this wasn't JPs gaff.

I did wonder if they find the idea of JP looking at the same area threatening because it might show up their own work.