Prof Jo Phoenix vs The OU - Employment Tribunal Thread 3

[ickky]

Started on 2nd October at Watford Employment Tribunal (Radius House, 51 Clarendon Rd, Watford WD17 1HP 01923 281750)

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Header should read

URGENT CURRENT CASE - Public Access Request - J Phoenix - The Open University - 3322700/2021

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Abbreviations

JP - Jo Phoenix, Claimant (C)
OU - The Open University, Respondent (R)
J - Regional Employment Judge Young
P - Panel or panel member
BC - Ben Cooper KC, Counsel for C
JM - Jane Mulcahy KC, Counsel for R

OU Departments & Networks:

HWSRA - Health & Wellbeing Strategic Research Area
FASS - Faculty of Arts and Social Sciences
SPC - Dept of Social Policy & Criminology
KMi - Knowledge Media Institute
GCRN - Gender Critical Research Network

OU witnesses

PB - Dr Paraskevi Boukli, Former Senior Lecturer Criminology, Deputy Head SPC 2021-22
IF - Prof Ian Fribbance Dean of FASS
DD - Dr Deborah Drake, Senior Lecturer Criminology, Head of SPC 2018-21
LD - Dr Leigh Downes, Senior Lecturer in Criminology (in SPC), Academic Lead for EDI FASS 2019-21
CT - Catherine Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
LW - Louise Westmarland, Prof of Criminology, Co-Deputy Head SPC, 2018-21, Current Head SPC
MW - Prof Marcia Wilson, Dean EDI, 2020-23
CM - Caragh Molloy, Group People Director 2019-23
JD - John Domingue, Prof of Computing Science, Director KMi, 2015-22
PK - Peter Keogh, Professor Health & Society, Member RSSH
CW - Dr Christopher Williams, Senior Lecturer History
SD - Shaun Daley, Head OU’s Resourcing Hub. Head Strategic Resources, Co-Chair OU’s LGBT+ Staff Network
HBC - Helen Bowes-Catton, Lecturer Social Research Methods
NS - Nicola Snarey, Assoc Lecturer Eng Language
NatS - Natalie Starkey, Outreach & Public Engagement Officer Sch Physical Sciences, 2019-22
CT - Cath Tomlinson, Senior Student Advisor
SJ - Samantha Jacobson, Employee Relations Case Manager
RH - Richard Holliman, Prof Engaged Research, Head School Environment, Earth & Ecosystem Sciences, 2019-22. Member of Investigation Panel investigating the C’s grievance

Witness for JP:

SE - Sarah Earle, Professor Modern History Uni of Oxford, Founding member GCRN

Tribunal Tweets - https://twitter.com/tribunaltweets

TT coverage so far https://tribunaltweets.substack.com/p/professor-jo-phoenix-v-the-open-university

Thread 1 https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4905118-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-2nd-october-whispers-ben-cooper?page=1

Thread 2
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4913946-prof-jo-phoenix-vs-the-ou-employment-tribunal-thread-2?page=1

Perhaps Duck as a term of endearment from partner? Cake

@chilling19

There was an unnatural silence then as everyone left for the break. Everyone silently thinking WTF.

Anyway, bollocks, arrive back from school run just in time to get kicked out...

I have to say the level of conversation on the way home from both my own and other primary school children was far better than Downes' answers to BC or the Judge. Ditto their ability to show compassion and responsibility.

Lark and chysam - thank you for your posts supporting me. I have managed to watch all the tribunals to date. But this witness - a woman - who is what? Indoctrinated? Denying her own abuse? Who is happy with men in woman's toilets/prisons?ect ect. I can only think she has never been in a situation where're she felt threatened by a man. But yeah I am out.

Imagine LD calling 999 to report a neighbour being burgled.
Police: Can you give us a description of the offender?
LD: How very dare you!

It's important to take care of yourself @chilling19 🫂

From TT 👀

She is expressing GC belief?
LD: That is the view she is expressing
BC: Your belief that this would stop you doing research in this area doesn't make sense
LD: I dont agree
BC: If you can do it quickly tell us the bit that is wrong in her talk
LD: where she talks about people with penises cant have babies...
BC: But if people of different sexes are put together they will make babies
LD: She brings in example of Karen White

@chilling19 take care of yourself, you've done Jo, yourself, lots of women looking in, and this little group proud. Wish I could see you in real life to tell you how amazing you are and sit with you. Safe hug to you if that's ok.

I don't think they'd see 'Duck' as a term of endearment. They'd be reminded of the 'if it looks like a duck' etc which is inherently transphobic.

At this point, what is not transphobic to someone locked into this padded cell of a belief system?

Is that the article in which they say they occupy an anti-carceral queer feminist place within critical criminology/zemiology

Yes, and it's also the article where they state their opposition to the 'prison industrial complex' and argue that sentences do not provide accountability so they are interested in how communities create justice themselves.

Well if we got rid of prison, communities would create justice either by the person getting away with it, or having their head kicked in. Neither of which is really progress is it?

My impression is that whatever happens LD will learn nothing from this. The semi-aggressive humping around of folders accompanied by large sighs, the whole demeanour. LD knows LD is right. LD simply cannot listen and will not hear.

There is a world on fire out there, and these unformed child-adults are unable to move beyond focusing on themselves, their needs and their wants. That is their choice. But what is not acceptable is the damage they do to others, which they cannot and will not see.

I noticed Downes said something about having worked with 'cis' as well as 'trans' prisoners. Did she ask them if they minded being called 'cis' because a lot of people find that actually quite offensive. I doubt she did, she's not that bright but this act WOULD be transphobic under her own definitions.

She's really deep in the Orwellian cult but she does know at some level that removing the ability to describe men as men is an important boot on the neck of women and that's presumably why she's so keen on it. Removing the ability to describe male bodies as male removes the ability for women prisoners to stand up for their human rights against degrading and inhuman conditions / torture (being forced to shower with a penis attached to a rapist will be torture for many women).

I'm back in, bu5 17 waiting in the lobby

Who wanted Tom Lehrer-style bingo?

There’s Pronounium, They-themium and Sucking-female-cockium
Podcastium, Amnesium and Idiots-in-the-dockium
And Bundlium, Timetablium and Kicked-into-the-lobbyium
Complicatium, Stonewallium and My-very-big-jobium
Long-grassium, what-the-fuckium and Took-legal-advicium
Busyium, Not-black-and-whitium and Balance-all-the-rightsium
Complexium, Difficult-questionium, Grievance-never-readium
Ben-gaspium, Judge-sighium and Can’t-believe-what-they-just-saidium

These are the only ones which made vipers’ bingo so aerobic
And there may be many others but you can bet they’d be transphobic

Agree. Which is why resisting this mangling and obfuscation of language is so vital.

Ok, I was going to bugger off, but that is what they want. To weaponise our trauma. This is realty of this - that women can't fight back against an establishment that is OK with this. So going to listen to the thread. Tomorrow is another day. ❤️

I don't think they'd see 'Duck' as a term of endearment. They'd be reminded of the 'if it looks like a duck' etc which is inherently transphobic.

see also naming garden digging implements

@BenCoopersSupportWren

The judge chose to remind LD not to discuss her evidence with anyone - I've not noticed her doing that with anyone else

@BenCoopersSupportWren Bravo👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾

These people want things to be organised around self ID but only for themselves. The fact is the hugely overwhelming majority of the world wants things to be organised around sex not gender. If institutions really were organised around self identity then GC beliefs would be ok to voice and in the majority.

It really is a masterclass in McCarthyism, so you have to give them that.

@chilling19 💪

Pure genius. Love it well done. I knew someone had the talent! @BoiledBeetle. Pure gold here for you.