Page 2 | Rishi - A man is a man and a woman is a woman. That’s just common sense

WallaceinAnderland · 2023-10-04T14:05:01+00:00

Looked for a thread on this but couldn't see one. BBC reporting this statement by RIshi Sunak today. "We shouldn’t get bullied into believing that people can be any sex they want to be - they can’t," he says. "A man is a man and a woman is a woman. That’s just common sense." [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67001483/page/2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67001483/page/2]]

namitynamechange · 04/10/2023 15:46

He doesn't either believe or disbelieve what he's saying, he's a political animal and will say and do whatever he has to to keep his grasping hands on power.

That's the way democracy is supposed to work (usually I know there's an argument about electing people to make decisions) - if there is something large numbers of the population feel strongly about the fact we can vote governments in and out means they are forced to listen. Now if only labour could grasp that.

MNetcurtains · 04/10/2023 15:49

Pandering to their base. All bullshit. Education soooo important, except when it comes to providing funding.

WinterTrees · 04/10/2023 15:49

I don't disagree herewegoround. But Sunak stating this clearly is like pulling back the curtain in the Wizard of Oz and there will be an awful lot of people who welcome the honesty, even if their basic position is #bekind

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 04/10/2023 15:50

namitynamechange · 04/10/2023 15:46

He doesn't either believe or disbelieve what he's saying, he's a political animal and will say and do whatever he has to to keep his grasping hands on power.

That's the way democracy is supposed to work (usually I know there's an argument about electing people to make decisions) - if there is something large numbers of the population feel strongly about the fact we can vote governments in and out means they are forced to listen. Now if only labour could grasp that.

So actual principles play no part? Yes we should be able to vote in those who advocate what we want. But they are supposed to actually believe it, because then there's the outside chance they may actually implement it. That's why we have political parties with manifestos, not just a single government that sways in the breeze of public opinion.

The Tories do not give a shit about women and children and never ever have. They are saying this to get votes, not because they care about protecting women. Things will get worse for women across the board if they are elected, even if they do actually implement some changes around how trans people are treated in various forums, because while this is an important issue, it is not the only issue. So anyone who votes Tory on this basis, thinking it will improve the lot of women and girls, is living in a dream world.

Almahart · 04/10/2023 15:51

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 04/10/2023 15:22

He's throwing trans people under the bus to try and get elected again. He doesn't either believe or disbelieve what he's saying, he's a political animal and will say and do whatever he has to to keep his grasping hands on power. The one thing I can tell you for a certain fact is that the very last thing on his mind is protecting the rights and safety of women. And far more women, and children, will be harmed by continuing Tory rule than could ever be harmed by even the most liberal trans policies.

I really want to believe that there is an intelligent, feminist approach to be found in the gender debates, as I am for the first time in my life not comfortable at the bleeding edge of liberalism and am still struggling to find a place where I can fully explore what I think about it all without feeling like either a bigot or a mug. If people on the gender-critical side fall for this total hogwash the Tories are wheeling out to churn votes, after 13 years of giving not the smallest shit about any impact and risks to girls and women there may be as an outcome of the rise of trans activism, instead of considering the wider implications of Toryism and its inherent misogyny, then there really is no place for those who want to balance rights here either.

I couldn't agree more

TooBigForMyBoots · 04/10/2023 15:51

LondonLass91 · 04/10/2023 15:18

Although, of course, the PM is right, how can they have allowed Stonewall et al to become so entrenched in our education system? The Conservatives introduced PSHE in schools, and within that class, in our primary schools and secondary schools, children are being taught the most dangerous forms of gender ideology. I have had a nightmare with our school in East London...the parents remain clueless for the most part.

Guess who was a Tory party donor until recently? Iain Anderson, Stonewall CEO.

RoyalCorgi · 04/10/2023 15:52

Finally putting a stop to trans ideology is an easy win for the Tories. The vast majority of the public want an end to this madness, and from the government's point of view it has two big pluses: it costs very little, and it differentiates them from Labour.

Who knows, or even cares, whether they really believe it? My instinct is that they do believe it, but I doubt they care about it as passionately as many of us do. They're doing it because it's a vote-winner. Well, that's fine. It's a tribute to the thousands of women who have worked their arses off over the past few years to put this on the political agenda. We've succeeded. Time to give ourselves a pat on the back - with a special extra pat for JK Rowling, the star.

Original poster

WallaceinAnderland · 04/10/2023 15:52

Starmer evades and obfuscates for exactly the same reason Rishi is taking a stand - he has calculated that he will lose more votes among his traditional base going after trans people than he will lose votes by letting down women.

Keir has already lost the gender ideologist votes. He has stated that he does not support self ID. TRAs and their allies are not voting for him. They are switching to Green.

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ShellySarah · 04/10/2023 15:53

WallaceinAnderland · 04/10/2023 15:29

He doesn't either believe or disbelieve what he's saying

I disagree on this point. I think he absolutely does believe that men are men and women are women. In fact, I think almost every adult in the world believes this too.

I agree. I don't believe anyone actually believes they can be the opposite sex just by saying they are.

I don't even think the trans people believe it.

donquixotedelamancha · 04/10/2023 15:53

I don't care. Their tokenistic attention to this issue is too little, too late.

The massive damage they've done to the lives of women over the last decade+ far outweighs the tiny positives on this issue. Some Tory women (as some Labour) have been brilliant- I'm sure they will continue to be once we are rid of this shitshow of a government.

MNetcurtains · 04/10/2023 15:54

PoseasRadicalActuallyMisogynistic · 04/10/2023 15:29

And I’ll be voting Tory on this one issue so I’m glad Rishi is spelling it out.
If the other parties are too cowardly/venal/stupid to acknowledge women’s rights and biological sex. I can’t have any time for them.

Edited

So a one issue voter then? 🙄

Floisme · 04/10/2023 15:54

If this is a stunt to win votes then Labour can nullify it any time they wish. I hope they do

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 04/10/2023 15:56

He doesn't either believe or disbelieve what he's saying,

That makes no sense. Surely pretty much everyone either believes or disbelieves the statement "People can't change sex."? I'm sure Sunak does believe it, as most people do.

I have no desire to vote Tory, but at least they have recognised that the vast majority of the general public doesn't remotely believe TWAW. Do you think that politicians who pretend they don't know what a woman is are preferable?

Original poster

WallaceinAnderland · 04/10/2023 16:01

Floisme · 04/10/2023 15:54

If this is a stunt to win votes then Labour can nullify it any time they wish. I hope they do

Absolutely! It's an open goal. Take the shot!

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Chersfrozenface · 04/10/2023 16:03

donquixotedelamancha · 04/10/2023 15:53

I don't care. Their tokenistic attention to this issue is too little, too late.

The massive damage they've done to the lives of women over the last decade+ far outweighs the tiny positives on this issue. Some Tory women (as some Labour) have been brilliant- I'm sure they will continue to be once we are rid of this shitshow of a government.

And what have Labour (the likely next government) said they will do for women and children?

For instance, the Tories got rid of Sure Start centres. Terrible move. L Will Labour bring them back? No

See here for woolly waffling on childcare.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/labourlist.org/2023/03/our-focus-will-be-on-reform-bridget-phillipsons-speech-on-childcare/%3famp

SpicyMoth · 04/10/2023 16:03

I know Twitter isn't real life, but the fact that his statements got "#TransLivesAreHumanLives" trending to such a huge scale worries me honestly.

As well as the amount of people saying things like this... Are people seriously still just wilfully ignoring when these things "literally" do happen????

Rishi - A man is a man and a woman is a woman. That’s just common sense

Floisme · 04/10/2023 16:07

Come on Starmer, sort it out. All you have to say is, 'On this issue, I agree with Rishi Sunak'.

BristolBlueGlasses · 04/10/2023 16:13

And what have Labour (the likely next government) said they will do for women and children?

The last Labour government did an enormous amount for women and children. What have the Tories done since?
As you say, the Tories got rid of SureStart. That's the measure of them.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/10/2023 16:14

Floisme · 04/10/2023 16:07

Come on Starmer, sort it out. All you have to say is, 'On this issue, I agree with Rishi Sunak'.

Absolutely. Put the minds of women at ease by agreeing that men are not women just because they say they are & the law must reflect this & reassure parents that labour's embarrassing silence about safeguarding children and queer theory in schools was just an oversight. They'll stop the NHS medically experimenting on the young and insist on evidence based, ethical medical care for all children.
So easy to regain the votes from once labour voting women (and men).

smithsinarazz · 04/10/2023 16:16

Two things. Firstly, while "trans women are women" doesn't make sense without a definition of "woman", nor does "a woman is a woman". Secondly, while I don't believe in gender myself, some people do, and it's a free country - or should be. People should be able to believe what they want and live their lives as they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. Some of the rhetoric from Braverman in particular seems to overlook this principle - rather than trying to find a way of reconciling the needs of different groups, it's genuinely nasty. Please don't believe that the Tories can be the friends of women. They can be the friends of well-off people of either sex with a British passport as long as they don't need healthcare, childcare, affordable housing, public transport that works, police that have got capacity to deal with domestic violence etc etc etc.

Boiledbeetle · 04/10/2023 16:22

WallaceinAnderland · 04/10/2023 15:29

He doesn't either believe or disbelieve what he's saying

I disagree on this point. I think he absolutely does believe that men are men and women are women. In fact, I think almost every adult in the world believes this too.

Totally.

Most of those parroting the familiar mantras don't actually believe a person can change sex.

About the only people who do are innocent kids who have been taught this crap since nursery.

caringcarer · 04/10/2023 16:24

He doesn't have many sensible things to say but this is sensible.

DeeCee77 · 04/10/2023 16:24

He knows full well it's a guaranteed winner.

Not being able to call a natural born woman a woman is Orwellian.

It's deception, and a form of control.

Because of this, there's a backlash among most of those of us on the left who traditionally are a defender of the rights of minority groups. The left will obviously maintain that support for those groups, but allied with support for the bleedin truth and the freedom to say it.

Nicola Sturgeon failing to answer what a woman was. That was genuinely scary.

The saddest thing about this attempt to force this deception on society is the bigotry towards trans people will only ramp up. Prior to this wacky, extreme far left movement trans people were becoming far more accepted in society; there was bigotry, but the tolerance level was increasing. This movement will set it back.

BCCoach · 04/10/2023 16:25

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 04/10/2023 15:39

Starmer evades and obfuscates for exactly the same reason Rishi is taking a stand - he has calculated that he will lose more votes among his traditional base going after trans people than he will lose votes by letting down women.

These are politicians (and more to the point, they are both enormously privileged MEN). The outcome of whichever policy direction isn't going to affect them; the impact they are concerned with is the one STATING a policy, whichever it might be, will have on vote share. That's it, and that's all.

For both of them, there is no moral or ethical dilemma here - it is a cold-hearted calculation of which group of marginalised people you can more safely throw under the bus and still get enough votes to be first past the post. Keir is saying as little as possible because, in the absence of a miracle, he OUGHT to be a shoo-in for the next election, not because he's a dyed-in-the-wool adherent to the trans cause.

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I disagree that the reason Starmer obfuscates is because he is scared of losing votes - it's unlikely he would, and he may even pick up quite a few traditionally leftwing voters, particularly women, who cannot bring themselves to vote for labour over this issue.

Starmer's problem is his party and particularly the foot soldiers: young activists who are on the ground, canvassing, leafleting and all the rest. They are Labour's strength (compare them to the increasingly aging and rapidly thinning ranks of local Tory activists) but also a massive concern - if he pisses them off he is screwed.

lifeturnsonadime · 04/10/2023 16:28

Shame Mr Starmer can't make the same emphatic truthful statement, it doesn't take much really does it? A statement like that and then a pledge to protect women's rights.

That's all Labour needs to do to win the single issue voters back.

Shame they don't care enough about women to do so.