Page 3 | Rishi - A man is a man and a woman is a woman. That’s just common sense

WallaceinAnderland · 2023-10-04T14:05:01+00:00

Looked for a thread on this but couldn't see one. BBC reporting this statement by RIshi Sunak today. "We shouldn’t get bullied into believing that people can be any sex they want to be - they can’t," he says. "A man is a man and a woman is a woman. That’s just common sense." [[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67001483/page/2 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-67001483/page/2]]

TooBigForMyBoots · 04/10/2023 16:28

Boiledbeetle · 04/10/2023 16:22

Totally.

Most of those parroting the familiar mantras don't actually believe a person can change sex.

About the only people who do are innocent kids who have been taught this crap since nursery.

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And will continue to be taught this crap because Sunak and Keegan refuse to issue advice to schools.

Chersfrozenface · 04/10/2023 16:29

BristolBlueGlasses · 04/10/2023 16:13

And what have Labour (the likely next government) said they will do for women and children?

The last Labour government did an enormous amount for women and children. What have the Tories done since?
As you say, the Tories got rid of SureStart. That's the measure of them.

And Sure Start centres won't be coming back

The previous Labour government had the advantage of a very much more prosperous economy, prior to the 2008 crash.

The next Labour government will not have that advantage.

And there is every indication that an incoming Labour government will not spend any more on public services than the Tories in its first two years.

It is pinning its hopes for greater expenditure on public services on "growing the economy".

"Why is growing the economy important?Increasing growth is the biggest economic challenge we face. We need growth so we can improve living standards and reduce poverty. And growth leads to the creation of more and better-paying jobs, and provides the tax revenues we need to fund strong public services."
(Labour party website)

Best of luck with that. Especially after ruling out joining any customs union with the EU or its single market.

TarantinoIsAMisogynist · 04/10/2023 16:31

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 04/10/2023 15:22

He's throwing trans people under the bus to try and get elected again. He doesn't either believe or disbelieve what he's saying, he's a political animal and will say and do whatever he has to to keep his grasping hands on power. The one thing I can tell you for a certain fact is that the very last thing on his mind is protecting the rights and safety of women. And far more women, and children, will be harmed by continuing Tory rule than could ever be harmed by even the most liberal trans policies.

I really want to believe that there is an intelligent, feminist approach to be found in the gender debates, as I am for the first time in my life not comfortable at the bleeding edge of liberalism and am still struggling to find a place where I can fully explore what I think about it all without feeling like either a bigot or a mug. If people on the gender-critical side fall for this total hogwash the Tories are wheeling out to churn votes, after 13 years of giving not the smallest shit about any impact and risks to girls and women there may be as an outcome of the rise of trans activism, instead of considering the wider implications of Toryism and its inherent misogyny, then there really is no place for those who want to balance rights here either.

I agree with this.

Datun · 04/10/2023 16:37

herewegoroundthebastardbush · 04/10/2023 15:43

What we want, surely, is politicians who have ideas that they think will make the country better/safer/more prosperous, and to make the case for those. We want, you know, political opinions to choose from, propounded by people who actually believe in them. Not just power-hungry game-players who pitch everything they say with a view to how it will play with the electorate.

What we also want, incidentally, is for there to be some mechanism whereby politicians are actually held to their policy commitments if they gain power. Currently they can say whatever they like pre-election, and then do something entirely different once in power. Sunak will say whatever he thinks will get your vote; then he will do whatever suits him best.

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Well yes, of course, but they're politicians. Complete strangers to morality.

But it's interesting to me that Rishi thinks it's a vote winner.

Dadfromthesea · 04/10/2023 16:38

The problem as I see it is not so much what he said, but what he didn’t say.

Saying ‘Men are men and women are women’ is not enough. Those words are literally true, but they are also a dog-whistle for hatred towards trans people.

I believe that men are men and women are women. I believe that nobody can change their sex. I believe that surgery and hormones can help someone with gender identity issues be more comfortable, and that that’s a good thing.

There are however, people who believe that men are men and women are women and who think that anyone who says they’re trans is a mentally ill deviant. They think that such people need correcting, and won’t refer to them as they wish to be referred. They deny trans identity. They feel that children should be taught to think the same way about trans people.

I can’t disagree with what the PM said, because it’s true. But I think he was saying it to appeal to that second group of people. He was, at the very least, not saying which of those two groups he sits in. As a result, that second group of people will feel emboldened. If I was trans I might feel scared by that, and I might wish that the PM had added some nuance.

Thingybob · 04/10/2023 16:40

Will Rishi get a visit from the police? Will his speech be recorded as a non crime hate incident?

Ordinary mortals are reported for less

RealityFan · 04/10/2023 16:41

I think this is how it'll be. Some "brave" words from Sunak and more likely Badenoch on this issue. Some positives like Barclay's instructions on transwomen in NHS female wards. More negatives, like no clarity on gender issues in schools, TWAW Keegan stays as Edu Sec.

Starmer coalesces around his announced position from a few weeks ago, little more from Labour other than fairness for all yada yada.

And then GE day arrives, we all traipse in to the polling booth, pencil in hand...

Floisme · 04/10/2023 16:47

Starmer's problem is his party and particularly the foot soldiers: young activists who are on the ground, canvassing, leafleting and all the rest. They are Labour's strength (compare them to the increasingly aging and rapidly thinning ranks of local Tory activists) but also a massive concern - if he pisses them off he is screwed.

I don't believe these activists are quite the asset Starmer seems to think they are, but I agree broadly with your point that Starmer is more scared of his own party than he is of the electorate, and much as he annoys me, I understand why.

I welcome this statement from Sunak - it's a golden opportunity for Starmer to reassure voters like me. I doubt though that he (Starmer) will have the nerve. The dilemma for voters like me is that I think the only thing that will make Starmer feel secure enough to take on the activists will be a comfortable majority. I don't know yet if I'm prepared to help him get it - I've still got to decide.

BristolBlueGlasses · 04/10/2023 16:48

The previous Labour government had the advantage of a very much more prosperous economy, prior to the 2008 crash.

They also had the will to improve things for the majority and we have seen over the past decade that the Tories do not. You only have to look at their voting records to see how little they care about education, health, the environment, women.

The alternatives might not be perfect, but why vote on a single issue when the evidence of Tory failure is everywhere and impacts us all.

‘Scandalous’ Tory government spending on hotels, furnishings and booze revealed

Labour reveals dossier exposing use of taxpayer-funded debit cards

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/tories-sunak-spending-credit-cards-hotels-b2280830.html

LoobiJee · 04/10/2023 16:48

“He's throwing trans people under the bus to try and get elected again.”

A tad dramatic.

How is saying “men are men and women are women” throwing trans people under the bus? It is no such thing.

No human being can change sex. To claim that humans can change sex is a lie. Males are male and females are female no matter what clothes they wear, hobbies they enjoy, or drugs they take. Telling humans who wish they were the opposite sex that they can change sex is lying to them and is not an act of kindness.

You know what is “throwing people under the bus”? Telling unhappy teenage girls who are up against the toxic porn-soaked online world currently being inflicted on our young people that all will be well if only they dope themselves with cross-sex hormones and amputate their breasts.

The only reason that making statements of fact about biological reality is available to the Conservatives as an election campaign tool, is because other political parties have spent the last X years committed to telling lies about reality and to bullying and silencing and defaming as bigots those who tell the truth.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 04/10/2023 16:48

Ah to live in such times where stating biological reality is (checks Twitter ) a hateful bigoted right wing dog whistle

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 16:52

Lottapianos · 04/10/2023 15:21

I was listening to his speech on the radio and that line got a huge cheer and applause. They've finally worked out which way the wind is blowing. Fully agree with all the criticisms about allowing the ideology to become entrenched in public bodies, but I'll take any bit of sanity at this point. Not that I'm considering voting Tory for a second

Good.

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 16:52

I mean, good that it got a huge cheer! I dgaf how you personally or anyone else chooses to vote!

RealityFan · 04/10/2023 16:53

Floisme · 04/10/2023 16:47

Starmer's problem is his party and particularly the foot soldiers: young activists who are on the ground, canvassing, leafleting and all the rest. They are Labour's strength (compare them to the increasingly aging and rapidly thinning ranks of local Tory activists) but also a massive concern - if he pisses them off he is screwed.

I don't believe these activists are quite the asset Starmer seems to think they are, but I agree broadly with your point that Starmer is more scared of his own party than he is of the electorate, and much as he annoys me, I understand why.

I welcome this statement from Sunak - it's a golden opportunity for Starmer to reassure voters like me. I doubt though that he (Starmer) will have the nerve. The dilemma for voters like me is that I think the only thing that will make Starmer feel secure enough to take on the activists will be a comfortable majority. I don't know yet if I'm prepared to help him get it - I've still got to decide.

I don't think he will reply. He doesn't need to. He's 20% ahead in the polls, that is closer to 25-30% amongst women voters especially younger ones. Our TRA fears are either not resonating with them, or they're 19th out of 20 on list of priorities.

And Starmer can point to the absolute shambles the conference was, and the big target that is Braverman. And whatever disdain we have for TWAW Boff, it's a PR disaster that he was ejected. Starmer has the double whammy of chaos and anti free speech.

Sunak has done too little and way too late, for his plain speaking to have a decisive effect.

Floisme · 04/10/2023 16:55

I don't think Starmer will reply either RealityFan. It's annoying though - he could wrap up my vote today if he so chose.

randomusername2020 · 04/10/2023 16:56

This reply has been withdrawn

Removed at poster's request due to privacy concerns.

LoobiJee · 04/10/2023 16:57

MrsOvertonsWindow · 04/10/2023 16:14

Absolutely. Put the minds of women at ease by agreeing that men are not women just because they say they are & the law must reflect this & reassure parents that labour's embarrassing silence about safeguarding children and queer theory in schools was just an oversight. They'll stop the NHS medically experimenting on the young and insist on evidence based, ethical medical care for all children.
So easy to regain the votes from once labour voting women (and men).

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This.

randomusername2020 · 04/10/2023 16:57

This reply has been withdrawn

Removed at poster's request due to privacy concerns.

LoobiJee · 04/10/2023 17:01

BCCoach · 04/10/2023 16:25

I disagree that the reason Starmer obfuscates is because he is scared of losing votes - it's unlikely he would, and he may even pick up quite a few traditionally leftwing voters, particularly women, who cannot bring themselves to vote for labour over this issue.

Starmer's problem is his party and particularly the foot soldiers: young activists who are on the ground, canvassing, leafleting and all the rest. They are Labour's strength (compare them to the increasingly aging and rapidly thinning ranks of local Tory activists) but also a massive concern - if he pisses them off he is screwed.

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He could also be obfuscating because he wholeheartedly agrees with all his young activists but but doesn’t want to disclose that in case he loses women’s vote enough to make a difference to the election result.

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 17:03

Well, I'm glad to hear Rishi hasn't abandoned women's rights, at least. Now we need action to back up his words.

untranchable · 04/10/2023 17:05

Thingybob · 04/10/2023 16:40

Will Rishi get a visit from the police? Will his speech be recorded as a non crime hate incident?

Ordinary mortals are reported for less

At least he didn't commit an even more heinous crime, like tying a ribbon to a fence.

backslashruby · 04/10/2023 17:07

LoobiJee · 04/10/2023 16:48

“He's throwing trans people under the bus to try and get elected again.”

A tad dramatic.

How is saying “men are men and women are women” throwing trans people under the bus? It is no such thing.

No human being can change sex. To claim that humans can change sex is a lie. Males are male and females are female no matter what clothes they wear, hobbies they enjoy, or drugs they take. Telling humans who wish they were the opposite sex that they can change sex is lying to them and is not an act of kindness.

You know what is “throwing people under the bus”? Telling unhappy teenage girls who are up against the toxic porn-soaked online world currently being inflicted on our young people that all will be well if only they dope themselves with cross-sex hormones and amputate their breasts.

The only reason that making statements of fact about biological reality is available to the Conservatives as an election campaign tool, is because other political parties have spent the last X years committed to telling lies about reality and to bullying and silencing and defaming as bigots those who tell the truth.

Edited

Couldn't agree more. Well said.

ArabellaScott · 04/10/2023 17:08

You know what is “throwing people under the bus”? Telling unhappy teenage girls who are up against the toxic porn-soaked online world currently being inflicted on our young people that all will be well if only they dope themselves with cross-sex hormones and amputate their breasts.

100%

Floisme · 04/10/2023 17:11

I really want to believe that there is an intelligent, feminist approach to be found in the gender debates, as I am for the first time in my life not comfortable at the bleeding edge of liberalism and am still struggling to find a place where I can fully explore what I think about it all without feeling like either a bigot or a mug.

I recommend you check out the Labour Women's Declaration if you're not already familiar with them. I think they're good, sound women, possibly the main reason why I've not given up on Labour completely. The problem is, you won't find them in the main body of the Labour Conference - only at fringe events - because Starmer doesn't have the nerve to be seen speaking to them in public.

LoobiJee · 04/10/2023 17:13

“Saying ‘Men are men and women are women’ is not enough. Those words are literally true, but they are also a dog-whistle for hatred towards trans people.”

Oh really? So how come “transwomen are women” isn’t being held up as a “dog-whistle” for hatred and contempt towards women? How come the use of “TERF” as a slur isn’t being criticised by those political parties who self-identify as ever so virtuous and progressive and on TRSOH?

Let’s face it, it’s women’s events and groups which are being targeted by masked men in black clothing harassing and intimidating the women, up to and including physical assault. The women campaigning for women’s right to retain single-sex female-only provision aren’t targeting events for people who claim a transgender identity for abuse.