School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

Children with gender dysphoria should have the reasons for their dislike of their body explored.

Mine were, exhaustively, for many tedious years. After we'd finished with the legislative calisthenics, we were forced to accept that it might be time to move on to actually providing useful treatment.

I'm sorry your parents didnt get your medical condition treated.

They did.

I suspect that they were homophobic.

I'm bisexual.

I'm concerned that you are trying to encourage other young people to follow your path.

Only if they're experiencing gender dysphoria that can only be addressed through endocrine intervention.

You have been deprived of your fertility

Pretty sure I was never fertile anyway

you have never experienced a normal sex life

I'm not sure what your idea of a normal sex life is but mine's fairly standard as far as I can tell

The hormones you take have unknown impact on your brain.

As opposed to the ones my body produced naturally that I'm partially resistant to?

You have many increased health risks, including the increased breast cancer risk.

This is true - I have an HRT risk profile like my mother does.

This is not a path to encourage anyone down - you are doing so only because you think it validates the decisions you took. It doesnt.

I'd never dream of encouraging anyone to pursue a course of treatment that sterilises them and increases their risk of side effects or future health conditions and is generally a pretty unpleasant business.

In the absence of alternative technologies, I do feel that the option should at least remain open, however, for people who need it.

The part that stands out is your reasons in pp are so incredibly gendered. You mention not liking football, having long hair and so on

This is so rigid compared to what can be a reality for boys it makes me question the solution. Your proposed method is extreme when if we made it more ok for boys (and men) to not do these things, and ditto for girls, it would be better off for children.

@ButterflyHatchedYou say your medical condition was treated. It obviously was not recognised at birth. If your medical condition had been treated with androgens you would have had fewer problems with your peers and not had to resort to magical thinking to justify wishing to be female.

Saying you are bisexual doesnt mean your parents didnt struggle with your attraction to other males -did they?

You imply you have had surgery but if you were not given androgens it would have been more difficult to give you anything resembling a vagina. You've never had a sex life that is not affected by trans sex hormones, you have no idea what sex would be like without them. They are known to affect sexual function.

Your experience is not the same as most of those who seek transition. However your desire to be seen as female still seems to be related to a misguided view of what it means to be female. You can like communal changing rooms if you are female, you can play with tanks, some women like playing football or rugby.. A lot of men are not that interested in sport of any type, long hair on men was fashionable in the 1970s (and at times before that). Your family seem to have brainwashed you with sexual stereotypes.

I'm concerned that you are trying to encourage other young people to follow your path.

Only if they're experiencing gender dysphoria that can only be addressed through endocrine intervention.

And how would you know if they are "experiencing gender dysphoria that can only be addressed through endocrine intervention" if you're not their doctor?

Why don't you leave this to the medical professionals who are best placed to decide how to treat children who appear to be suffering from gender dysphoria?

Trying to acquire victim status doesn't really work when you're the one who's just said you know your presence in women's spaces makes women uncomfortable, but you're going to do it anyway.

How is not liking football but liking long hair a medical condition?

should i be worried that i like short hair, football and i have spent a lot of time with and looking at tanks. (my favourite is the Soviet T-64 with reactive armour). the highlight of a business trip once was getting to fire an AK47 (and getting the highest score)

Have i been living my authentic self as a woman or am i suppressing being a trans man.

You're going to dismiss everything I'm about to say, and actually it doesn't seem fair in a way to say it to someone who I believe has been damaged by the medical establishment and their parents as much as you have. But you're here advocating for that same damage to be inflicted on other children, so here we go.

Reading back through your posts, it seems very clear that you were a very gender non conforming boy. That's a very difficult thing to be. Society is even keener for men to be masculine than it is for women to be feminine.

I think your parents were supremely uncomfortable with this, hence their enthusiastic embrace of 'trans', Far preferable to have a trans daughter than a feminine son.

Your sexist parents in collusion with sexist medical professionals irrevocably changed your body at an age when you were too young to understand the long term effects of what was done to you.

Your posts read as very angry, and that is an appropriate response to what was done to you.

Easier to be angry at women who won't admit that you're a woman than at your parents isn't it?

Advocating for the same treatment you got to be meted out to other children makes what happened to you OK. If it happens all the time, it must be right.

You seem to me to be a person who is both vulnerable and damaged, and also dangerous. that happens a lot.

You won't like this post, and it is very personal. but you're here talking extensively about yourself and advocating for something really quite horrifying. So I feel it is justified.

I believe the phrase was ‘certainly an indication that something was up’.

I mean, I have gone to air shows and climbed over planes and ridden in military aircraft. I have been on one of the largest floating naval command ships and peeked around. I could keep going. I hung around a military college for a couple of years (boyfriend now husband) and was mistaken for a cadet many times. I too, have numerous friends in the military or ex military. Does this make me a man? I had short hair while I did those things. And usually wore men’s sports apparel or jeans.

As I said upthread. There seems to be this ridiculous need for males who have told the world they are female to discuss wonderously interests they believe are male stereotyped that they still have as some sort of gotcha. The gotcha is supposed to be ‘it isn’t about stereotypes- look’.

People like the barrister who loves trains and spitfires, and Alex Drummond and Alex’s mechanical prowess!

The hypocrisy is that they describe interests and actions that THEY perceive as ‘male stereotypes’ which female people have as interests too. Just not many. However, in doing so while they glory in their wondrous womanhood, they themselves have just relegated some women as being ‘male’ because of those interests.

But they never understand the hypocrisy and the blatant misogyny at all. Their misogyny and deep sexism.

And they subsequently never understand that they have completely negated their own transition story.

This must mean that your constellation of statistical data points is wrong. Sounds like you need to consult a statistician or an astrologer.

Well it’s all built on lies isn’t it? And you can’t stop people lying to themselves

but you can and should stop them sterilising and mutilating children

”but you can and should stop them sterilising and mutilating children”

Yes.

I seriously considered buying a Chieftan tank many years ago. It was going for £7k in Loot 😁 I still think back and wonder what might have been.

Isn’t there a tank down south in that gets around? The family also get bookings for birthdays and fetes.

£7k seems a good investment

I'm not sure it was road legal. Mine you, after I'd been trundling around tearing up the tarmac for a few years I'd probably have the roads to myself. Also seemed the logical next step, a one-up on the owners of the Chelsea tractors. There's a Universe somewhere where I'm driving round in my tank, like an ambulatory goldfish <sigh>

😁

Either way, what has also become clear is that some posters don’t seem to comprehend that the wider medical world has realised now that the use of puberty blockers is not as it was being described by people and groups determined to ignore the reality of those drugs.

And the reality of the current cohorts seeking transition.

Just as they have not realised also that all those ‘younger’ people they were relying on to build support momentum as allies accepting whatever trans people say and demand is proving to be actually not being realised. How many time have we been told ‘you are all dinosaurs and the younger people are so much more tolerant’?

Well, no. The feeling from parents of children and teens is that this group is pushing back on being forced to deprioritise their needs to suit someone who insists they have done the impossible and changed sex.

And I suspect that all those wonderfully loving teens and 20 somethings that have been found to be the most intolerant people in the UK are going to be mightily fucked off in years to come when all this will have been seen as a population wide experiment. And that the reality was that by whatever means it happened, safeguarding for children and vulnerable teens and adults was discarded at the say so of this group.

Didn’t a study show that the average time to regret of surgical transition was 10.8 years?

We are just seeing the very early detransitioners now. And still extreme trans activists continue to bury their heads and ignore the realities that are emerging.

when i was a kid in the 70s there was a spate of newly minted squaddies at places like Tidworth, jumping in a 432 (oh I've driven one of those, and a Chieftain tank) and taking it home to "show their mum"

I think you'd pay more than 7k for a Chieftain now due to the scrap value alone.

To get back to the serious point i think @Helleofabore has put their finger on it: these dangerous stereotypes (that we 2nd wavers fought so hard against, honestly i thought we'd put all that to bed) are in people's heads. And those heads aren't female sexed.

"when i was a kid in the 70s there was a spate of newly minted squaddies at places like Tidworth, jumping in a 432 (oh I've driven one of those, and a Chieftain tank) and taking it home to "show their mum""

Hilarious.

"The hypocrisy is that they describe interests and actions that THEY perceive as ‘male stereotypes’ which female people have as interests too. Just not many."

To clarify. It is not just that women and girls have these 'interests'. Some of us do stuff like 'fix our own cars' because we live/lived below the fucking poverty line. You know, in the rush to claim to be the most marginalised and vulnerable group some people kinda miss that due to the very sexism they uphold with their own statements that some female people really are marginalised and vulnerable. Just when we are we don't have special months and weeks supposedly 'supporting us'.

Some tank fans here, excellent!

@BernardBlacksMolluscs not dismissing what looks like a shift toward genuine concern. It's quite different to your previous stance, but I'll take it at face value.

The 'parents saw feminine boy and enthusiastically transitioned him' angle doesn't match reality, though. Parents deeply concerned about possibility of it being a phase and strongly urged waiting. Ahead of the curve for the time - their general response and attitude is identical to the default today evidenced in many, many current posts on Mumsnet about cautious parents unsure how to respond to trans kids. I was, at all times, the one pushing for treatment. There's nothing new about all of this, other than the fact that more people know trans people exist and that there are treatments available.

@Helleofabore first reply is a messy and nonsensical Catch-22 with a No True Scotsman at either end.

-Have an interest stereotypically associated with women? You are just perpetuating a stereotype of what you think a woman is. This proves you aren't a real woman - real women have other interests!

-Have an interest stereotypically associated with men? Aha! You may think you aren't perpetuating a stereotype, but you are perpetuating a stereotype of what a stereotype-defying woman looks like. Only real women can enjoy stereotypically male things in a female way. This invalidates your transition narrative and shows you're really just male!

This is the same flavour of rhetorical bollocks that's used against people showing an interest in fields and hobbies not typically associated with them and it's very, very tired. I'm pretty sure you don't actually believe in this gatekeepy 'the right answer is whatever you aren't saying' crap and it actively harms the integrity of the rest of what you say.

Second reply is great though! I agree that the wider world - including the medical community - now knows about puberty blockers and other available treatments and the number of mainstream media headlines on the subject shows it is under vigorous discussion. Unfortunately, this means it is also subject to concerted misinformation campaigns and cherry-picked or misrepresented results, alongside 'ridicule by association' nonsense like the 'furries in schools' guff that's currently doing the rounds.

Capturing that easily radicalised angry youth demographic is the key to leveraging a reactionary swing as they'll have grown up to become the new enforcers within the next decade. If this pushback really gets off the ground in the 2020's, policy escalation in the 2030's should be well supported once this generation has become students, soldiers and law enforcement and entered the voting pool. That'll be the point where we see the alliance of convenience break down between the die-hard old school 2nd wavers who are content with the repeal on legal protections and withdrawal of treatment and actually still give a shit about most women; the beige feminism-appropriating culture warriors who have jumped on the GC bandwagon and will swing whatever way the headlines are screaming, and the actual far right who want to keep going.

Ugh, getting Felix vibes.

-Have an interest stereotypically associated with women? You are just perpetuating a stereotype of what you think a woman is. This proves you aren't a real woman - real women have other interests!

if you think anything other than your body is what makes you a woman then yes, you are just perpetuating a stereotype of what a woman is

Only real women can enjoy stereotypically male things in a female way. This invalidates your transition narrative and shows you're really just male

you are really male

your body is the only consideration here. You have a male body, you are a male. Any journey you have been on is irrelevant

nothing apart from reality is doing any ‘gatekeeping’ here

I was, at all times, the one pushing for treatment.

you were a child. While your opinion was interesting, you did not have capacity to understand and consent to what was done to you

I appreciate that you’re in denial about this and I’m frankly in two minds about whether remaining in that state would be best for you

I am very clear however that you coming to have an understanding of reality would be better for the people who interact with you now, particularly the women and children

That whole, "don't worry we can still get to your kids post" is interesting! Oblivious.

Policy escalation in the 2030s? We would have seen anorexia and cutting becoming legal identities by now if that was the trajectory.