School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

We should not be sterilising kids who have non-traditional interests.

Your hobbies have no relation to your sex.

Your hair, clothing preferences have no relation to your sex.

"-Have an interest stereotypically associated with women? You are just perpetuating a stereotype of what you think a woman is. This proves you aren't a real woman - real women have other interests!"

" -Have an interest stereotypically associated with men? Aha! You may think you aren't perpetuating a stereotype, but you are perpetuating a stereotype of what a stereotype-defying woman looks like. Only real women can enjoy stereotypically male things in a female way. This invalidates your transition narrative and shows you're really just male!"

I don't think you quite understood the posts.

"-Have an interest stereotypically associated with women? You are just perpetuating a stereotype of what you think a woman is. This proves you aren't a real woman - real women have other interests!"

" -Have an interest stereotypically associated with men? Aha! You may think you aren't perpetuating a stereotype, but you are perpetuating a stereotype of what a stereotype-defying woman looks like. Only real women can enjoy stereotypically male things in a female way. This invalidates your transition narrative and shows you're really just male!"

Or could it be:

That you have used sexist stereotypes to flag a reason for you or clinicians to look further for your diagnosis.

"It's true that having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture aren't something I'd consider to be indicators that someone is a trans girl, but they were unusual enough at the time that they helped generate a sense that something was up."

We have consistently pointed out that your sexist stereotypes were absolutely bullshit and very weak when you review them. Yet, you have sincerely leveraged them.

While all at the same time making some kind of big deal, as have other transitioned males, of retaining some interests that you and them seem to think is some kind of proof that you didn't transition because of sexist stereotypes. Like a 'look everyone, I am doing these things that I sexistly consider as male stereotypes to prove that I couldn't have transitioned due to the other sexist stereotypes that I leveraged to "generate a sense that something was up".

So, no. I think you don't understand what I have posted at all. And you have added some hyperbole to go with it.

You are still perpetuating sexist stereotypes. Why else did you mention fucking tanks and traybake? There has been post after post from posters pointing out the fact you are still perpetuating sexist stereotypes. You can deny it all you want, you are still perpetuating sexist stereotypes.

Remember all that shite you tried to post about biological essentialism. Well, anyone actually understanding that feminists reject it would understand what we have been saying.

"Only real women can enjoy stereotypically male things in a female way."

I don't believe this reflects anything I have posted.

My point is that anyone can have the interests you have. Anyone.

It actually really is not hard.

The ONLY thing that female people have in common is their female sexed body and there may be some things in common about how they react to the processes and the reality of having that body. That is all.

Yet.... you persist in telling us we are the biological essentialists. Yet you are the one who have utilised sexist stereotypes in this discussion.

I don't know quite how many times we can say this.

There really seems to be lack of understanding here.

It’s really not a tricky message is it?

1. sterilising children is bad. Even if they say they really want to be sterilised

2. if you have a male body you’re a man. Even if you don’t feel like one. Even if you’ve had cosmetic surgery

3. women deserve the safety, dignity and privacy of single sex spaces away from men. Even ones who have had cosmetic surgery

you have to be really putting the effort in to misunderstand any of that

'having female friends and fiercely disliking football lad culture'

It is sad that anyone should believe that either of these things are problematic, difficult or in any way issues that need to be addressed.

It's a strange relationship you have to women, Butterfly. You say you identify with us, yet you seem unable to offer even the tiniest glimmer of empathy or consideration to women.

In all of your very, very long screeds about yourself, your history, your feelings, you've never yet offered even the slightest indication that you have any interest in the thoughts, feelings, or lives of the women here. Not a smidge. It's as if you are using all the women on this board to construct your own self image.

You are in love with a mirage, a reflection of your own ideas.

“In love with a mirage, a reflection of your own ideas” - sounds like a figure from Greek mythology….

"You are in love with a mirage, a reflection of your own ideas."

yes, it is quite clear from the posts Arabella.

In all of your very, very long screeds about yourself, your history, your feelings, you've never yet offered even the slightest indication that you have any interest in the thoughts, feelings, or lives of the women here.

There are a few thoughts of us shared; rampaging predjudice, dying second wavers, beige feminists.

Beige!

Aye, they're ciphers, though. Again, figments, not real human beings.

That's the exact opposite of what I was saying.

Note to those reading along.

The feminists at the forefront of raising awareness of the conflicts between the rights and needs of women and children and heavily ideological trans activist were and are second wave feminists.

I am sure that many posters on this very thread were and are second wave feminists.

Yet, I believe the inference is that we are not second wave feminists and are "beige feminism-appropriating culture warriors who have jumped on the GC bandwagon and will swing whatever way the headlines are screaming, and the actual far right who want to keep going."

Written by a male who seems to have little actual idea who women and girls are outside that male's own constructed view that they used to gauge that they were 'a girl' and then 'a woman'. Nearly every single post shows that they have little idea.

Maybe they save their real personality for Mumsnet. Because I cannot conceive any other feminist putting up with what has been posted here otherwise.

I’m skipping those bits Hellofabore. Unfortunately I’m in the sort of profession where I get a lot of that sort of talk from, mainly, men. I find it best not to interact or I might lose my mind and I am here…

…waiting for the guidelines!

Fair enough.

However, in the past it has been said that posting explanations that show the falsities (deliberate or not) does help people who have not yet got a solid grasp on their opinions. Because it helps them to recognise the patterns and then understand why some posts cause dissonance but they may not quite have analysed why.

It sounds like you are well sorted.

😂

Sorry, Hellofabore, didn’t mean to snipe at you. I think you’re doing a fantastic public service. It’s just I want one ducking place. I’m fed up of all the special people.

That is absolutely fine. I took it as your frustration at the merailing not at me.

Mind you, even if you were having a go, I am rather robust 😁

Yes frustration at merailing. Love merailing, btw thanks for that.

@Helleofabore Wait, wait wait wait

You think I was trying to invoke sexist stereotypes via incidental mentions of the fact that my dad's cooking is great? Or my weekend plans with the family? In the hope that they would somehow...what exactly? Good grief!

Why on earth would I be posting here if I didn't have an interest in the opinions and lives of the people likely to read it? If even one person comes away with a more accurate view of what it's like for young transitioners further down the road, then it's worth the not-insignificant mental health cost of countering the lies and assumptions.

I'm sure that plenty of the posters here are 2nd wavers but if you think the average Mail, Telegraph or Times reader who has co-opted the 'Gender Critical' label while uncritically absorbing their daily dose of outrage bait is a feminist then I'm afraid I have some bad news for you.

@ButterflyHatched
If transitioning is nothing to do with stereotypes, what is it's purpose? The only other reasons I can think of for wanting to transition are internalised homophobia or a pathological revulsion with the sexed body. (Since this is primarily a discussion about children, I'm ignoring the 4th reason which is most prevalent amongst middle-aged heterosexual men.)

I don't think any of these reasons are good ones for encouraging young people down a path which leads to sterilisation and sexual dysfunction. A child who is troubled by their own gender nonconformity, or because they are same-sex attracted and feel that this is wrong, or who is repelled by their own body, all need sympathetic mental health support, not hormones and surgery.

No one is born in the wrong body. We shouldn't be encouraging children to think that their healthy bodies are wrong and need medicating. Why do you want to encourage children down this path?

Yup

I’m still not clear why simply being a feminine man with a healthy body wouldn’t have been a far better outcome for our visitor

as it is, assuming he’s relating facts accurately, he’s now a feminine man with a body ruined by cosmetic surgery, puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. He’s infertile and will require medical attention for the rest of his life

it hardly seems a desirable outcome or one you should advocate for for children

Why on earth would I be posting here if I didn't have an interest in the opinions and lives of the people likely to read it? If even one person comes away with a more accurate view of what it's like for young transitioners further down the road, then it's worth the not-insignificant mental health cost of countering the lies and assumptions.

You care about how we see you. That is not the same as caring about us. It's extraordinary solipsism.

It's just not possible to control the views and beliefs of others.

Compelling speech, emotional manipulation, and dishonesty may win some kind of uneasy pyrrhic victory.

But you can never be sure what people are really thinking. Acquiescence or appeasement or politesse or rebellion, who knows?

Acceptance means you have to set aside coercive tools and meet the world and yourself with honesty.

Anyone caught up in the nonsense of 'gender' must on some level crave honesty like a thirsty person craves water.

Yep. It’s not possible. You can compel people to say blue is red, use tactics as the teacher did and call 13 year old girls despicable, leave and so on but those tactics will be exposed.

Punishing children and others for not repeating lies really is 1984 territory.

Society is not going to be reorganised for a tiny minority of males.

And why should they even ask it to be? Where do males get such confidence it should be