School guidelines on gender identities/trans out this week

[ArabeIIaScott]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22733965/schools-banned-letting-pupils-change-gender-parents-rishi-sunak/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12208907/PM-says-children-not-allowed-switch-identities-schools-without-telling-parents.html

These are the only two articles I could find so far.

'Schools will be forced to tell parents if students are questioning their gender under new Government guidance to be published this week, according to a report. '

I think Butterfly claimed to have been prescribed hormone blockers in the 1990s. They were developed in the 1970s and by the 1990s were being prescribed to adult transsexuals and the Dutch were just starting to use them for adolescent patients by the late 1990s. If Butterfly was an adult in the 1990s they could easily have been prescribed these drugs.

Michael Biggs's article has more detail about the history of these drugs.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2022.2121238

I actually have no doubt that people were prescribed them in the 90s. What I query is the expectation that their bodies will continue to not display the damage in years to come. That they have fully escaped the effects. My friend took it around then and it took years for the true damage to come out. She is female though and therefore more prone to the horrific effects and that they come earlier. She expects she has little time left.

That is the difference between male and female. And the fucked up fact that all the effects take decades to come to light.

Yet, despite the effects being known for Lupron, they are blissfully ignored in the full focus of male transition needs. Because to this group of people, only male ‘passing’ matters. Female people are dismissed now as they have historically.

Hence why it is so important to give our children room to experiment without harming their future.

It sounds like your friend has had a really rough time of it. I'm so sorry for her. Did she take it as a consistent pattern as part of treatment for gender dysphoria, or was it part of another, different treatment regime? Presumably she was in periodic contact with the service that prescribed them and was able to report these issues? Do you know if she was part of any longditudinal studies? Do you know if a direct link was established between the specific product and the symptoms? I hope it all goes well for her.

The focus on passing is really quite horrifying - trans girls bear the psychological legacy of growing up under the misogynistic shadow of the patriarchy, forcing them into existing toxic dynamics that see women constantly compared with and pitted against one another - but where they occupy a default 'beyond even contempt' slot if they aren't considered to pass.

That is combined with 'we can always tell' and 'you make women uncomfortable just by existing' styled rhetoric which weaponises people's appearance against them. You are framed as an inherently harmful monster for not doing the thing that protects you from being framed as an inherently harmful monster, and a vain narcissist if you do.

The end result is that trans people in general, but especially trans women:

-Hate the entire concept of 'passing' and the way we are brutalised over it.
-Know that 'don't be seen' is the highest tier of priority for living a safe and blissfully transphobe-free life.
-Are accused of being shallow and vain for caring about the tools that give them the best chance of escaping abuse and marginalisation.
-Are reviled and ridiculed and called reductive 'x in y' slurs for the rest of their lives for something they only ever had a brief window to do anything about.

When I've explicitly pointed this dynamic out, which I have done several times to you directly in fact, it's been dismissed as something that only bigoted men do. NO. YOU do it. Constantly. You've done it repeatedly in this and other threads. Whenever I've challenged the usual GC mantras, I've been accused of either outright lying, or if that fails, it switches to accusations of narcissism or vanity or another thought-terminating cliche.

I'd like to say I'm surprised that you are trying to blame trans women for the fact that trans men exist and also desire early access to treatment much like we do, but it does match a consistent pattern of blaming trans women for almost everything.

"I'd like to say I'm surprised that you are trying to blame trans women for the fact that trans men exist and also desire early access to treatment much like we do, but it does match a consistent pattern of blaming trans women for almost everything."

You don't seem to be able to comprehend what I wrote at all. But we have been through this.

I AM blaming you for your continued advocacy for medicalised treatment for children and teens. You absolutely know, because I have given you statistics and clinicians reports etc that the majority of young transitioners are FEMALE.

Do you or do you not agree with this well proven statistic?

You have also been provided numerous times by clinician and other expert opinion that the treatment YOU advocate for, is potentially not suitable for these female people. Both because of the differences in their sources of gender discomfort AND because of the significant negative side effects of both medication and surgery.

In the past, you have simply dismissed these. And I believe, I reckon I could look back and find it, that you would never advocate that female young transitioners should be treated differently because you feel that they should be able to choose. Or have you now changed your mind and understand the difference between the current cohort who are female and their significant differences to you?

YET NO trans lobby groups ever discuss the differences between male and female transition in light of the very serious negative side effects to female people. And there is such a mounting number of female transitioners saying that they simply are not told of these negative side effects. OR do you not believe them because they are the wrong type of trans person?

FFS Even Freddy a university graduate admitted nobody explained to Freddy that having a double mastectomy would mean they couldn't breastfeed! And there is Freddy having children and admitting as a 20 something year old that they never did the research for themselves what the negative side effects were AND the clinicians never told them either.

So, yes. Male activists such has you have shaped the discussion and dominated it. The research in the current cohort of transitioners is only just now happening. The dramatic increase started coming up to a DECADE ago. No research was done. No fucking lobby group was even fucking interested. Just the same fucking stories about male transitioners and how they needed early medicalisation.

Do you understand in the USA there is currently a young woman still in her teens suing their clinic because she was medicalised and and had a double mastectomy at 13! Due to affirming only treatment pathways. Do you have any fucking idea what a double mastectomy does to a female body? DO YOU?

Would you like to now acknowledge whether you understand the differences between the current cohort and the previous one which was male dominant?

👏 👏 👏

I'd also like to point out to Hatched, that trying to guilt trip women on here is a complete waste of time.

We're fucking livid and shaming doesn't work.

You know, most of that post is you angry that women can generally correctly sex over time and interaction. And that you are angry that women reject your presence in single sex spaces.

Emotionally manipulating people to accept you in their single sex spaces is no longer working.

However, this puzzles me. What have I said is only something that bigoted men do?

Guilt trip us? For defending our boundaries and saying simply that women need women only spaces?

Aye, good luck with that!

I prioritise women and girls' feelings and safety. That's it. That's all.

"And I believe, I reckon I could look back and find it, that you would never advocate that female young transitioners should be treated differently because you feel that they should be able to choose"

Should read,

I reckon I can find your post stating that you would not advocate for female transitioners to be treated differently because all children and teens should have equal choice.

This is despite the many testimonies that these girls and young women are not being fully informed and are in fact going into clinics fully primed with all the right things to say to get the pathway that all the social media, and all the trans lobby groups and well meaning people tell them is either fully reversible, or tell them will fix them. The system is fucked and it is the female transitioners that are being most harmed by this negligence of a supposedly wonderfully loving and caring group.

There are men and women/boys and girls.

There are same sex attracted people, bisexual people and straight people.

That's it.

The end result is that trans people in general, but especially trans women:
-Hate the entire concept of 'passing' and the way we are brutalised over it.

I'm struggling to understand this. Isn't the whole point of presenting as a transwoman about attempting to look as much as like a woman as possible? Isn't the whole point about 'passing'? (Obviously this doesn't apply to people like Alex Beardy Drummond who appear to be just taking the piss.) And the end point of 'passing' is to be able to access women-only spaces without the women knowing that you are male.

If you hate the idea of 'passing', then don't try to pass. Just be an out and proud male presenting as you wish. And stop trying to claim discrimination for not being allowed to use women's spaces. Because they're not for you, they're for women.

Hi Walt, more bollocks?

With a resigned sigh:

-That's not even an option. I just get read as an androgynous woman if I try.
-I wouldn't want to anyway, because I'm happy being read as a woman. Life is pretty chill most (but not all) of the time like this
-I don't feel a sense of dysphoric disconnect about how I look. Nor do I feel a sense of dysphoria about how people treat me
-It lets me work in places that would be dangerous otherwise
-It's pretty great, I'd love others to be able to have the same

Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where nobody gives a damn how you look. That would make existing publicly while trans a lot more pleasant.

It wouldn't prevent dysphoria though. So even in the bright sunlit uplands of an imaginary future where sense or time has delivered a world with no transphobes, some people would still need treatment for gender dysphoria.

yup

nothing good comes from pretending

ace

if I understand your post, you're a man who looks a bit like a woman

crack on

use the gents

-That's not even an option. I just get read as an androgynous woman if I try.
-I wouldn't want to anyway, because I'm happy being read as a woman.

So if you try to pass you're read as an androgynous woman, but if you don't try you're read as a woman? I thought you were male. You're making less and less sense with every post. Are you now claiming to be a transman?

It lets me work in places that would be dangerous otherwise

What sort of places would those be? War zones?

Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where nobody gives a damn how you look.

Don't we? I think people care less than you seem to imagine. I certainly don't obsess over how I look, and I'm not aware that anyone else cares. And if they did I'd view that as their problem.

some people would still need treatment for gender dysphoria.

Yes, mental conditions like this must be very difficult to live with. It would be great if a cure could be found so that people who suffer with these conditions didn't feel that the only solution was to make radical changes to their bodies.

as a previous poster said, this is a person who has arrived at the solution and now needs to provide the working out

I need to role play as a woman because.....reasons

very, very important reasons

...who says they look a bit like a woman.

But who is mighty preoccupied with the concept of passing, says they dress more 'femme' in order to, er, pass better, and know they make women feel uncomfortable in female only spaces. Because...?

All people born male, including you hatched need to stay out of women's spaces. Even if you really, really don't want to.

Haven't for twenty years; no intention of starting now!

@JanesLittleGirl jealous? Plenty of organisations desperate for volunteers and no shortage of work to be done. Odds are you probably wouldn't even have to work alongside a trans woman either, though of course, you never can be too sure...

I get the sense you're forces-adjacent from your terminology. I wonder - do you behave like this in a professional context or just when you're abusing trans people online in your free time?

This is why we need to have
clearly defined guidelines. The number of articles we are seeing coming through is deeply troubling.

This below should never have happened where a trans organisation and a group of teachers supported this.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/c4af6f1c-1276-11ee-9673-09365d127a9f?shareToken=dcf6a82e739f6596fbb7897c6484f5a4

This is also the point we get to when groups with no or little safeguarding training and no experience with dealing with children provide ‘advice’ and ‘mentoring’ to teenagers.

This is what happens also because so long this groups revolve around males and their needs.

This current cohort of young transitioners has now been identified as majority female with a huge % of them with ASD, ADHD or other either diagnosed or undiagnosed issues. Many of the cohort have trauma already in their lives. The very worst place for these girls is to be ‘guided’ by heavily invested, unqualified and heavily biased people.

This outside group had delivered classes in school. Then provide the girl with the details on how to get binders and cross sex hormones.

I really hope that the dept of Ed does something about the materials being used in schools. The outsourcing model is a failure in my eyes.

This is a horrific scenario for this family.

in sense and time when the world is rid of transphobes....

yeah let's pop that through the bullshit translator. You live in hope of a sane world where women don't want rights or ever say or do anything that gets in the way of a male person's wishes.

In essence, your glorious day dawning will be one of male supremacism.

How is typing words on a page 'abuse' whereas actually physically entering into spaces not for you, and making every woman and girl in there fearful absolutely fine?

The thing with you guys is, even if people tell you the effects you have on women and girls, you just don't give a shiny shit about them, showing it is about domination and affirmation rather than safety. You like having the power and control and get off on it.

That is why people are getting pissed off, and many of us have been for years.

Just use the gents, gents.

The presence of a male in a women only space will cause some women distress and will exclude some women.

Male feelings don't matter more than women's.

We are not here as props.

We are not responsible for solving male violence.

We are not willing to sacrifice our safety, privacy and dignity.

use the gents

Show quote history
Haven't for twenty years; no intention of starting now!

It really doesn't take long, does it.

The mask doesn't just slip, it gets ripped off, flung to the floor and enthusiastically stamped on.

Aye, it's a resounding 'fuck you' when women ask that their safety privacy dignity and feelings be respected.

'You can't stop me'.