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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Alex Massie spells it out in the Times.

65 replies

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2022 21:32

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fc90146c-6813-11ed-bcd8-599592d95f22?shareToken=4aa8db330265c2db1083abbe9b53a6b5

Succint and clear.

'the Scottish government now believes a person may change their sex. Or, at any rate, it has argued in court that sex is no longer “immutable”. This is not true but, as so often in modern Scotland, reality must give way to fantasy.'

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HopRockers · 19/11/2022 21:52

That's an excellent article thank you for sharing.

I already knew all the details of Dolatowski but "has now been transferred to Cornton Vale women’s prison." still made me take a breath 😩🤬

JanieAllen · 19/11/2022 21:55

yeah ... its absolute madness

zanahoria · 19/11/2022 21:55

The SNP constantly snipe about being controlled by Westminster but sign up to this lunacy that was born and bred in the USA.

HopRockers · 19/11/2022 21:58

zanahoria · 19/11/2022 21:55

The SNP constantly snipe about being controlled by Westminster but sign up to this lunacy that was born and bred in the USA.

Ironically this is the thing that has people hoping Westminster will step in - I just don't understand the strategy

JanieAllen · 19/11/2022 22:00

I'm now utterly terrified of independence. I only stay here as I've got elderly parents who will not move.

TheBiologyStupid · 19/11/2022 22:04

Thanks as always, Arabella. The final paragraph is excellent:

So, a question for MSPs and those who support the government’s gender reforms: is Dolatowski a “predatory male” or a “trans woman”? Or is she actually both of these things? And if she is both, what are the implications of that status?

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2022 22:05

In the US:

twitter.com/BrandonMShow/status/1593683063719940096?cxt=HHwWgMCqmbCT850sAAAA

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Boiledbeetle · 19/11/2022 22:33

Every single woman in Scotland on the first day the new rules come in should apply and change their sex to male. Then start using all the male single sex spaces. Leave the ladies single sex to the men who want to be validated and the women who act as their handmaidens.

I mean it won't have much impact but the stats should be fun . Suddenly 99% of Scotland would be male!

Datun · 19/11/2022 22:58

TheBiologyStupid · 19/11/2022 22:04

Thanks as always, Arabella. The final paragraph is excellent:

So, a question for MSPs and those who support the government’s gender reforms: is Dolatowski a “predatory male” or a “trans woman”? Or is she actually both of these things? And if she is both, what are the implications of that status?

Yes. I'm find it increasingly irritating that there appear to be two groups of men. Predatory men and men who identify as women.

And many appear to believe that the former will take advantage of rules to accommodate the latter. When in reality they're all predatory if they use those rules.

A man in a woman's space doesn't stop violating her boundaries because he has a special identity. Her need for a single sex space isn't negated because he disagrees that she should have it. It's the opposite. His disagreement is the reason the space is provided in the first place.

Men who disregard women's consent over their own privacy are all the same.

Abitofalark · 19/11/2022 23:08

"Alex Massie: Gender reforms will open doors for predators

The proposed bill will allow abusive men to take advantage of trans rights"

Quality article from Massie - he's such a good writer and so sharp.

"A previously medical process will be replaced by one in which anyone can change their gender — and their legal sex — simply by affirming their new identity. (One of the many mystifying aspects of this subject is that people who wish to de-medicalise gender identity for adults also insist questioning children should be put onto an irreversible medical pathway to change their bodies and identities.)"

What is particularly good about the comment in bold, in addition to the intrinsic logic, is in the awareness and precision in the use of language. Here he refers to children by an open term, 'questioning', and to a 'pathway to change their bodies and identities', a considered way of not labelling them as something they are not and not conferring an unwarranted status and significance on tinkerings with who they are.

ShamedBySiri · 19/11/2022 23:20

Boiledbeetle · 19/11/2022 22:33

Every single woman in Scotland on the first day the new rules come in should apply and change their sex to male. Then start using all the male single sex spaces. Leave the ladies single sex to the men who want to be validated and the women who act as their handmaidens.

I mean it won't have much impact but the stats should be fun . Suddenly 99% of Scotland would be male!

That would be so brilliant. It is the only way. I would definitely be doing it if I was living in Scotland.

ResisterRex · 19/11/2022 23:29

Article tweeted by JKR

https://twitter.com/jkrowling/status/1594078775918166016?s=46&t=XsV8m1FXf99_yPmE33668Ww

DoloresTellUsStories · 20/11/2022 00:08

Thank you for the share token, OP.

I ask people who read the article to go back, and read again; but for each "she, her" in reference to Dolatowski, substitute the grammatically and biologically accurate pronouns "he, him" (because that is what he is).

To be fair, the writer, Alex Massie, points this out: ...for although Dolatowski was born male, convention now decrees that she be referred to by her preferred pronouns...

Many thanks to Barra Kerr for cutting through all this utter crap with the article on usage of inaccurate pronouns:

fairplayforwomen.com/pronouns/

TheBiologyStupid · 20/11/2022 00:16

ShamedBySiri · 19/11/2022 23:20

That would be so brilliant. It is the only way. I would definitely be doing it if I was living in Scotland.

Sounds brilliant - like something from Aristophanes.

DoloresTellUsStories · 20/11/2022 00:22

For example, take the original sentence: "Since she had not alerted the police to her change of address, she was arrested for breaching the conditions of her previous release."

Change that back to actual fact: "Since he had not alerted the police to his change of address, he was arrested for breaching the conditions of his previous release."

He had committed paedophile assault crimes against girls.

He had, afterwards, been accommodated in a women’s refuge in Leeds.

What was it again, about these things could never happen? Bollocks.

NancyDrawed · 20/11/2022 06:23

ResisterRex · 19/11/2022 23:29

And the second response tweet by 'JK Trolling':

Here we go. Non stop

Because OF COURSE the problem isn't Dolatowski, his crimes and the situation that allows him to be in a women's prison. The REAL issue is the sunlight that JKR/Alex Massie are directing on him and it.

FOJN · 20/11/2022 07:02

But it is shockingly, irresponsibly delusional to think that predatory males will not take advantage of any openings offered them. That is their entire modus operandi. Remarkably, a majority of the members of the Scottish parliament are precisely this naive.

It's a good article. Its written with a well deserved sneering contempt for the people who are so stupid they ignore the obvious or so spineless they will go along with it to avoid being called a transphobic. I have nothing but contempt for every last one of them. I don't usually refer to people as stupid but I cannot find any other plausible explanation for this insanity.

Does anyone know if the primogeniture clause will remain in Scotland's reformed GRA? I suspect it will. It's important to make sure a law covers unlikely eventualities whilst opening the door to sexual predators.

Whereareyourshoes · 20/11/2022 07:27

Thank you for sharing.

‘Dolatowski’s story is precisely the kind of thing we are repeatedly told just will not happen. Supporters of the Scottish government’s plans to make it easier for people to change their legal sex continue to insist there is no evidence reforming the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) will make life easier for “bad actors”. Real-life examples of precisely this drawn from the real world are dismissed as mere anecdotes’

It’s devastating how little our MSPs care about the safety of women and children. If real life examples don’t count as evidence, what would count?

EsmaCannonball · 20/11/2022 08:33

I've always argued that if men-only spaces were so terrible for men who identify as women then it's odd that so many of them decide the perfect time to come out is right when they are banged up in a men's prison. If I weren't such a cold-hearted harpy, and were more blindly trusting like that lovely, innocent Nicola Surgeon, I might suspect that they were just angling to get into a women's prison.

334bu · 20/11/2022 08:38

Thanks for share.

ShamedBySiri · 20/11/2022 08:50

Can someone remind me where female prisoners who identify as men are housed? My understanding is they don't get put in the male estate as it is too dangerous for them. Are they just left in the women's accommodation or is there a third/separate space? In which case the safest option for women housed with these predatory men would be to identify as men.

Treaclemine · 20/11/2022 09:28

What about - looking at that Californian report - designating a prison as a women's prison, to respect the rights of these self identified women, but only putting trans women there? If they are arguing that they are women, they couldn't complain, could they?

ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 10:02

EsmaCannonball · 20/11/2022 08:33

I've always argued that if men-only spaces were so terrible for men who identify as women then it's odd that so many of them decide the perfect time to come out is right when they are banged up in a men's prison. If I weren't such a cold-hearted harpy, and were more blindly trusting like that lovely, innocent Nicola Surgeon, I might suspect that they were just angling to get into a women's prison.

The report that many 'desist' from 'living as women' after their sentence is finished might also suggest such a thing. Were one of a horribly bitter, cynical and twisted mindbent. Of course, the deeply kindhearted Scottish Government are far more understanding and compassionate when it comes to sex offenders tormented by a sincere need to live among women.

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ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 10:02

ShamedBySiri · 20/11/2022 08:50

Can someone remind me where female prisoners who identify as men are housed? My understanding is they don't get put in the male estate as it is too dangerous for them. Are they just left in the women's accommodation or is there a third/separate space? In which case the safest option for women housed with these predatory men would be to identify as men.

In Scotland, as far as I recall there is one female in the male estate.

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ArabellaScott · 20/11/2022 10:06

For reference, re transwomen switching back to birth gender on release:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-prisoners-switch-gender-again-once-freed-from-womens-units-qjjsd0nlx

More in here:

academic.oup.com/bjc/article/62/4/1000/6370239

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