Stats re transgender in women's spaces

[Triffid1]

I know I have seen threads on here, Twitter and elsewhere with actual data/multiple examples on things like transwomen/girls in girls/women sports, prisons etc. But needless to say, now that I need them, I can't find them.

Got into one of those ridiculous arguments with a (shock) white middle aged man the other day. Super liberal, support trans people etc etc. But his basic premise is that while there might be the very very odd man who takes advantage, the vast bulk of trans people are woefully misunderstood, and treated badly.

We didn't even get to the part about the huge number of girls who are presenting as boys in early teens and the potential impact of medical decisions on them, but he kept patronisingly telling me that to write off the entire trans community because of one or two bad eggs is me being super biased etc.

Of course, it probably won't work because one thing I did point out is that even at a very high level of sport, we've seen this happening - weight lifting, swimming, cycling at international level but his response was still, "be kind" and "that's a huge minority".

Any hand links? I am going to also do a deep dive of my email because I remember a friend and I sharing a few bits and pieces to each other a few years ago.

Quick answer - start with the grassroots groups who do a huge amount of work gathering stats, research and qualitiative data eg Keep Prisons Single Sex, Save Women's Sports, Fair Play for Women, Sex Matters, Genspect

Re sport, Boys vs Women clearly illustrates how even one male bodied trans person in women’s sports, even a mediocre one, would have a huge impact.

boysvswomen.com/#/

But his basic premise is that while there might be the very very odd man who takes advantage

Takes advantage of what? Could he actually word a policy that lets 'genuine' transwomen in and keeps out non-trans males? How would you word that?

If he thinks it's actually impossible to differentiate the two, then he accepts that it's a policy that will (and has) result in harm to women.

Yesterday there was a Guardian article about why so few women take part in mountain biking. I commented that perhaps women thaught it wasn’t worth bothering when a competitor like Kate Weatherly was so dominant.

The comment was removed of course.
www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/oct/08/harriet-burbidge-smith-on-a-mission-to-get-more-women-mountain-biking

Ask him whether he'd have sex with a transwoman who hadn't had genital surgery.

But his basic premise is that while there might be the very very odd man who takes advantage

don’t even bother

this tells you he’s an n+1 guy, where n is the number of women harmed and n+1 is the number that need to be harmed before it’s a problem to him

spend your time talking to someone who isn’t a dick. This guy will never change his mind

I've just added this. Wonder how long it will last.

this tells you he’s an n+1 guy, where n is the number of women harmed and n+1 is the number that need to be harmed before it’s a problem to him

Such a great way of describing it, especially with this man. I find him infuriating at the best of times and often feel like he's such a typical white, middle aged man - he literally cannot see the world outside of his own framework.

Is this man straight? Would he consider sleeping with a woman with a penis, or a woman with an inverted penis?

Then ask him what makes his bed special in it's moral right to reject a certain type of woman, as opposed to, say, a lesbian's bed or a women's sport's team or a women's refuge?

Point out the massive hypocrisy and then block / ignore.

We talked about Lesbians who don't want to sleep with trans women with penises. I totally should have asked him if he wants to sleep with a woman with a penis.

Ask him if he was in a serious car accident recovering in hospital and needed to be washed while in bed would he be fine with a bepenised 6'3" nurse who was clearly biologically male doing all his personal care?

He is staying at an 5 star hotel and asks for a massage from spa staff. Would he be fine with a similar male in a wig giving him the once over in a confined space?

He's in the pub with his grown son and a transwoman turns up for a date when his son was expecting a woman from the impression he got on the app. What should his son do?

He would consider all of these examples so rare and insignificant as to be irrelevant and/or if they are real possibilities, to be fine ie.

Hospital - he'd say that why can't a biological male who presents as man or woman do his care (actually, I would largely agree with that - a male nurse for a male patient seems perfectly reasonable).

Massage: he'd see that as fine. A better example that MIGHT be relevant would be "your dd is booked for a massage, and a large male pretending to be a woman is doing it" instead. But then his answer would be that it doesn't happen or is so rare as to be irrelevant.

Grown man and his son has to date a transwoman - I suspect he'd say a) it's rare and b) that it's fine - his son can have a drink with the woman.

Maybe try him on some of the serious things we were told wouldn't happen...

It will never happen - resource thread. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

There you go op.

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/this-never-happens

Also, of the number of transwomen in prison, over half are there for sex offences. Over half. Sex offending is way overrepresented in that cohort. See Fair play for women for original source statistics.

And if he says they won't all be trans, just predators pretending to be trans, then...well exactly.

Ask him this (with apologies to Tyson Fury)

Imagine all the women disappeared. Replaced by the exact same number of Tyson Furys.

Ie at least a foot taller and considerably stronger than him.

Would he then be perfectly happy to go into a space with one of these Tyson Furys. Not knowing if it wash the nice guy Tyson, or his alter ego Mr I'mLookingForAFight Tyson.

No way of knowing til it's too late.

Ask him this.

As I really don't think men have any appreciation of the size difference of men and women. As they are broadly in the stronger size.

How many "things that never happen" are acceptable to him.
Also, as someone else mentioned, would he have sex with a transwoman (assuming he's not gay or bisexual). If he's gay, would he have sex with a trans man

From The Times last week: Half of Scottish trans prisoners changed gender after convictions archive.ph/uFOkU

Seems pretty obvious that some men will identify as female to get into the women's prison estate. In response to a freedom of information request, "The [Scottish prison] service also declined to disclose how many complaints female prisoners had made against trans prisoners since its transgender prisoner policy was introduced in 2014, again for cost reasons".

DH took some note of my 'But you are quite literally twice my size [he is, he's nearly 18 stone]. No wonder you don't really get what the problem is with mixing sexes.'

(I mean, I know he's a wuss. And I could probably take him out by biting his ankles. But that wasn't the point.)

FernPotts I think that's the only way to get them to engage.

They have to think Tyson Fury size bloke. As he could knock out cold any man he came across.

This. He doesn’t see women as actual real ppl in their own right with needs & wishes, he sees them as support humans.

far better that the support humans suffer, than a man be sad

there will never be enough disadvantaged women for him to care

I'm very new to Twitter and haven't got linking sorted out yet, but try looking up these tweets.

Or perhaps the grassroots activist who was a mathematical analyst for British Aerospace who has spent 5 years examining these stats in closest detail not for celebrity or popularity but because i am already unable to use hospitals & was trashed by my rape crisis centre for saying this was WRONG.