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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sonia Sodha on MB and the cotton ceiling

77 replies

lanadelgrey · 29/05/2022 08:31

Go Sonia. www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/if-lesbian-prefers-same-sex-dates-thats-not-bigotry-desire-personal-thing

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Truthlikeness · 29/05/2022 10:12

Arnaquer · 29/05/2022 08:55

Exactly this. Misogyny pure and simple

Unfortunately is does also exist the other way round - it was a bit later coming, and not as strident perhaps, but gay men are also told they're bigots for not accepting female bodied partners.

MrsWooster · 29/05/2022 10:13

SomersetONeil · 29/05/2022 08:50

Good article.

Why, oh why, is it ALWAYS transwomen making demands? You don’t see transmen demanding to have sex with gay men.

And you certainly don’t see gay men being expected to, or be willing to, have sex with men with breasts and vaginas.

There is burgeoning ‘boxer ceiling’ but it plays out on entirely predictable sex lines: the trans identifying women are pitied and derided, not feared. The gay men defending their boundaries are resented, not threatened with rape and violence.
Odd, that.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/05/2022 10:18

you certainly don’t see gay men being expected to, or be willing to, have sex with men with breasts and vaginas.

Mr Menno made a reaction video about the successful viral video suggestion that gay men should learn various techniques for sex with transmen.

guinnessguzzler · 29/05/2022 11:14

Great work from Sonia on this.

RoyalCorgi · 29/05/2022 11:45

I wonder why apartheid-era South Africa and the Holocaust are the two go-to analogies for women wanting to have boundaries. Simultaneously inflammatory, offensive and totally batshit.

I thought Sonia's article was pretty good but maybe not one of her best. It needed to spell it out for people who have come to this late. You really need to say loud and clear that demanding lesbians consider biological males as sexual partners is homophobic and inexcusable.

Artichokeleaves · 29/05/2022 11:49

Excellent article, politely talking about one of the most truly ugly aspects of all this.

I particularly like her light touch around the comment of 'lived experience' as it leads the reader to realise the conversation goes:

"I identify as a woman, and I expect you to respect that at all times in how you interact with me."

"Ok, I identify as a female homosexual exclusively attracted to other females and I expect you to respect that at all times in how you interact with me."

"No."

zanahoria · 29/05/2022 12:30

Wonderful article but so good it makes me see this all through fresh eyes and think "is this really happening?"

lassof · 29/05/2022 12:32

SomersetONeil · 29/05/2022 08:50

Good article.

Why, oh why, is it ALWAYS transwomen making demands? You don’t see transmen demanding to have sex with gay men.

And you certainly don’t see gay men being expected to, or be willing to, have sex with men with breasts and vaginas.

100% this.
You can't even imagine it, can you? A workshop for gay men to make them want sex with female bodied men?

notanoccultexpert · 29/05/2022 12:38

Reddit discussion here - on the usually TWAW UnitedKingdom subreddit, it's nice to see most responses are in Sonia's favour: link

zanahoria · 29/05/2022 12:43

I am really grateful for this article as I do not have the energy to keep up with the trial. If Alison wins, I expect much more in the mainstream media.

How did that QX think she has the right to lecture a black woman on apartheid?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/05/2022 12:50

You can't even imagine it, can you? A workshop for gay men to make them want sex with female bodied men?

Odd you should say that, because:

BEGINS IN 15 MIN!
Seminar Kink U Session 4- Seminar Rm 3rd FL
Vaginal Sex for Gay Men by Boy Madura Onyx

Class eliminates concerns or hesitations about sex & play w/ vaginas. Highlights basics of vagina, sexual play, & the transitional changes for some transfolk w/ vaginas.

twitter.com/IMLchicago/status/1530636281511919617?

Sonia Sodha on MB and the cotton ceiling
BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 29/05/2022 13:57

nice to see Cathryn McGahey called out by name for the shameful views she holds and passionately espoused in the tribunal

pressuring same sex attracted women to sleep with men being same as pressuring white south africans to share opportunities and resources with black south africans? do me a fucking favour

do you think the penny is dropping for any of them yet...?

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/05/2022 14:15

nice to see Cathryn McGahey called out by name for the shameful views she holds and passionately espoused in the tribunal

I think McGahey would phrase that somewhat differently. Presumably she is seeing that she is written up for championing the progressive views that she holds and passionately espoused in full view of the Tribunal, various legal teams, and observers.

I see this as McGahey being the learner driver in the Bob Newhart Driving Instructor sketch. I should think she casts herself in a SJW role.

lassof · 29/05/2022 14:15

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/05/2022 12:50

You can't even imagine it, can you? A workshop for gay men to make them want sex with female bodied men?

Odd you should say that, because:

BEGINS IN 15 MIN!
Seminar Kink U Session 4- Seminar Rm 3rd FL
Vaginal Sex for Gay Men by Boy Madura Onyx

Class eliminates concerns or hesitations about sex & play w/ vaginas. Highlights basics of vagina, sexual play, & the transitional changes for some transfolk w/ vaginas.

twitter.com/IMLchicago/status/1530636281511919617?

love it!

  1. 'kink'. Not just 'normal sex with a man with a vagina' then?
  2. comments are hilarious. Once the gay male community realises conversion therapy is heading their way, this nonsense will soon stop.
lassof · 29/05/2022 14:25

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/05/2022 12:50

You can't even imagine it, can you? A workshop for gay men to make them want sex with female bodied men?

Odd you should say that, because:

BEGINS IN 15 MIN!
Seminar Kink U Session 4- Seminar Rm 3rd FL
Vaginal Sex for Gay Men by Boy Madura Onyx

Class eliminates concerns or hesitations about sex & play w/ vaginas. Highlights basics of vagina, sexual play, & the transitional changes for some transfolk w/ vaginas.

twitter.com/IMLchicago/status/1530636281511919617?

I dunno, I'll try again ....

Awesome find!

The comments are particularly hilarious. Gay men seem to see this as conversion therapy ...

And why is it a 'kink' workshop? What is 'kink' about men having sex with men with vaginas? Surely they are just men attracted to men, hey

StageRage · 29/05/2022 14:34

Brilliant article.

Very clearly laid out, and respectful to trans people who are not acting in this abusive manner.

GCC is stuffed with barristers who built their reputation on defending human rights cases. I hope they are squirming at finding themselves on the same side as people defending the obviously abusive and coercive ‘cotton ceiling’ concept.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 29/05/2022 14:36

reinventing heterosexual sex as 'kink for gay men'

what the actual fuck?

Artichokeleaves · 29/05/2022 15:03

A workshop for gay men to make them want sex with female bodied men?

Oh based on the approach to lesbians so far, they don't need to want it, it's not about them enjoying it , they just need to overcome their prejudices enough to learn to cope with it .

Unwanted sex, in which your role is entirely as facilitator to a partner that is not bothered that you had to be talked out of your refusal, and is not interested in your enjoyment, only in access to your body.

Seriously, run a bloody mile from anyone of any sex and any gender who intends to treat you like that. They are not sex or relationship material.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2022 16:20

Artichokeleaves · 29/05/2022 15:03

A workshop for gay men to make them want sex with female bodied men?

Oh based on the approach to lesbians so far, they don't need to want it, it's not about them enjoying it , they just need to overcome their prejudices enough to learn to cope with it .

Unwanted sex, in which your role is entirely as facilitator to a partner that is not bothered that you had to be talked out of your refusal, and is not interested in your enjoyment, only in access to your body.

Seriously, run a bloody mile from anyone of any sex and any gender who intends to treat you like that. They are not sex or relationship material.

Some new entrants to these arguments may think Artichoke is exaggerating. She isn't.

I present to you, the words of McKinnon, lately known as Veronica Ivy, a male transitioner who competes in women's cycling. McKinnon's views are not unique, either.

McKinnon Sometimes happens. Other times, the cis lesbian gets over her genital hangups and realizes that she can cope just fine

Sonia Sodha on MB and the cotton ceiling
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2022 16:35

Then there was the time McKinnon/Ivy said, a couple of years later:

I actually think any sexual orientation other than pan is immoral because sexual genital preferences immoral.

But that means I think hetero people are just as bad off.

After huge pushback, McKinnon did publicly retract this about a week later. It's up to you whether you think McKinnon genuinely reassessed the ethical issues in response to comments from people on twitter.

Sonia Sodha on MB and the cotton ceiling
Sonia Sodha on MB and the cotton ceiling
nepeta · 29/05/2022 16:41

What's hilarious, in the sense of dark humour, is that it's not very long ago when some men tried forcefully to 'convert' Lesbians into loving penises.

I remember reading about it in the context of the gay/Lesbian liberation movement, as one of the heinous things that some of those opposing Lesbian and gay rights did.

Now similar arguments are used against the idea of Lesbianism and, to a lesser extent and later in time, against gay men. Forced heterosexuality, that is.

That Lesbians have been attacked earlier and harder than gays by the TRAs on this reflects the same pattern as the much earlier and more severe disappearance of words such as 'woman' in the sense of 'an adult female human being.'

Similar words referring to adult male human beings are not erased much at all, and really only when our side has complained about the asymmetry in this process of queering (from queer theory, the destabilisation of the concept around which a group has been created). So we get men and menstruators, but not women and ejaculators etc.

The sexism of the gender identity movement is truly astonishing as almost all of it is clearly visible and so much of it is supported and initiated by women who would call themselves feminist but wish to be virtuous, kind and inclusive.

zanahoria · 29/05/2022 17:16

" pressuring same sex attracted women to sleep with men being same as pressuring white south africans to share opportunities and resources with black south africans?"

a totally disgusting thing to say to a black lesbian

how do they have the front?

Boiledbeetle · 29/05/2022 17:18

SomersetONeil · 29/05/2022 08:50

Good article.

Why, oh why, is it ALWAYS transwomen making demands? You don’t see transmen demanding to have sex with gay men.

And you certainly don’t see gay men being expected to, or be willing to, have sex with men with breasts and vaginas.

Hmmmm let me think.......

5 mins later still thinking

30 minutes later still thinking

Nope I'm stumped Can't think why that is at all! 🤔🤐

FictionalCharacter · 29/05/2022 17:22

SomersetONeil · 29/05/2022 08:50

Good article.

Why, oh why, is it ALWAYS transwomen making demands? You don’t see transmen demanding to have sex with gay men.

And you certainly don’t see gay men being expected to, or be willing to, have sex with men with breasts and vaginas.

I’ve seen plenty of whining from transmen about not being accepted into the gay dating scene. They try, but gay men just ignore them, and don’t get accused of being bigots in the way that women rejecting TW do. Funny that.

MagnoliaTaint · 29/05/2022 19:52

SomersetONeil · 29/05/2022 08:50

Good article.

Why, oh why, is it ALWAYS transwomen making demands? You don’t see transmen demanding to have sex with gay men.

And you certainly don’t see gay men being expected to, or be willing to, have sex with men with breasts and vaginas.

Er ...

Yes. You do.

twitter.com/IMLchicago/status/1530636281511919617?t=1lIu4lqQqdGwWFEn8aodJA&s=19