Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 2

[Sophoclesthefox]

Forgive the presumption, @Mforstater, but you’re probably busy in the pub right now, or passing on all of the fan mail to you legal team so I’ve made a new thread to carry on the fascinating discussion.

Round up your cats, rabbits and weasels, and let’s go!

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From thread one, here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Hi all,

Thank you so much for all your support: emotional, intellectual, financial, spiritual(!) reading the Mumsnet feminism board is where this all started for me!

The case starts tomorrow.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

It kicks off at 10am - the first bit will be "admin" between the judges and the lawyers working out the timings, issues and any reporting restrictions hmm.

Once that is all sorted the judge and the panel will go away to read (probably for the rest of Monday and all of Tuesday)

I will most likely give evidence Wednesday and Thursday.

@tribunaltweets will be tweeting the whole thing (assuming they get permission from the judge)

Links to papers will go up throughout the case at www.hiyamaya.net.

Any other questions I am happy to answer them (apart from the ones where I have to say "that is for the tribunal to hear"...)

I have made a spectators guide with FAQs etc here

Lots of love

Maya

I'm so sorry I cant watch the tribunal, type and pretend to work all at the sme time.

But OMG what a riviting exciting session it was this morning.

BC getting in all of Maya's GC beliefs, actual reality etc are NOT untrue & stating facts is not in itself offensive, while AG can't wait to be out of there. I get that this is extremely uncomfortable for her.

I hope other think tanks are paying attention. If you hold yourself out as a think tank you need to support and encourage critical thinking, not seek to stifle debate because its an issue you'd rather not think about thanks.

Crying, upset about the graphics on a leaflet, can't say the word penis

This is a think tank.

She's acting like a child who's just found out father Christmas doesn't exist.

@CriticalCondition

AG is worried someone is going to say the word penis again...

hopefully lunch isn't hot dogs!

LOL @Jackiebrambles

@DameHelena

The hand is a bit nightmarish. I can imagine a trans activist saying it's a cliched clawing, 'witchy' or 'mannish' hand, like evil terfs probably imagine transwomen to have. But you know, grow up a bit, is what I'd say to that. And remember the trans activist images and slogans like people pointing guns and saying 'shut the fuck up, terfs', and then throw stones.

So what sort of hand 'stealing women's rights' would you use to illustrate that image?

A woman's hand with nail varnish? Very problematic because nail-varnish is one of the first things many TWs use to denote femininity.
Man's hand (hairy, stubby)? But it's not just men out to steal women's rights. Many women are at it too.

The designer's gone for an abstract goblin-style hand in order to avoid all that. That AG sees it as a portrayal of an evil TW hand says more about AG than the image.

a graphic of a hand that you are saying is stealing something from you is intended to look creepy/sinister - that's kind of the point of the graphic - to illustrate the point.

and lets face it, we all know, the advance of gender idology over womens rights a la Dentons & many other methods employed is absolutely sinister.

To be fair to her, I didn't think she seemed to be crying.

It goes so quiet when they take a break - I'm lost

I wonder what Owen Barder's overall view of this is. It was his personal policy that led to a shift in the thinktank on the Manel matter despite initial opposition.

It was interesting to learn that Barder challenged the relevance of MF's draft. It would be good to know if he was content after MF had amended it.

MF's challenge to the policy of manels was a logical one and is an example of why the thinktank might have had to rethink the relevance of the discussion of sex v. gender identity.

@PoshPyjamas

To be fair to her, I didn't think she seemed to be crying.

I didn't notice her crying - flushed, pulling lots of faces of discomfort

She just described the FPFW leaflet as having 'the red, evil hand of the transwoman coming to get the rights of women'.

Cripes.

Bit transphobic of her to assume that's a TW's hand

If she is so upset by these questions, I wonder if she knows but needs to keep up appearances to keep her job? So she cannot deviate from the underlying unsaid culture, but she knows very well.

I can just about understand and sympathise with some slight embarrassment about having to hear and use the word penis in a formal court hearing about employment. But it was more than that. Watching it you could see AG's expression of disgust and a physical shudder. In the UK it would be the sort of 'eew, willies' reaction you might see in a child .

There really is a different culture at play here. And it's played a significant part in this.

It is a different culture. And there's been a huge effort going on, that's continuing, to embed that culture into all of our institutions, organisation, companies, etc and to render it unchallengeable.

@nauticant

The imagery says to me pinching something whilst the owner isn't paying attention.

Like the hands in this pick pocketing poster

@CriticalCondition

I can just about understand and sympathise with some slight embarrassment about having to hear and use the word penis in a formal court hearing about employment. But it was more than that. Watching it you could see AG's expression of disgust and a physical shudder. In the UK it would be the sort of 'eew, willies' reaction you might see in a child .

There really is a different culture at play here. And it's played a significant part in this.

I work in publishing and can confirm that sex and swearing do not go down well with American readers.

Watching it you could see AG's expression of disgust and a physical shudder. In the UK it would be the sort of 'eew, willies' reaction you might see in a child .

Which makes it even more bizarre and absurd that AG accepts and expects women to not be bothered by penis in single sex spaces, perhaps AG could tell us what magical thing happens to the 'eew willies' if they are attached to a person who says he is a woman to stop them being so disgusting and producing a physical shudder.

@CriticalCondition

I can just about understand and sympathise with some slight embarrassment about having to hear and use the word penis in a formal court hearing about employment. But it was more than that. Watching it you could see AG's expression of disgust and a physical shudder. In the UK it would be the sort of 'eew, willies' reaction you might see in a child .

There really is a different culture at play here. And it's played a significant part in this.

Absolutely. I feel I've learned a lot of undertone from this tribunal.

I find myself wondering what AG would do or feel if herself or her daughter (don't know if she has one) ended up in a Wi Spa situation?

She must be under the assumption at the minute that it's something that either doesn't happen or couldn't happen to her. Maybe statistically is is unlikely but the more prevalent this ideology becomes and the more safeguards dropped the more likely is that it will happen to a woman/women who holds the same beliefs as AG.

AG's testimony has helped me understand in some way why the concept of privilege arose in the US and so quickly caught on. But then people like the CGD staff realised they themselves could turn it to their own use.

Off topic rant:

Just catching up now. I'm surprisingly annoyed by AG feeling "uncomfortable" about discussing certain topics.

The idea of a penis makes her uncomfortable. The idea that some trans women have penises makes her uncomfortable. The idea that some men commit sexual assaults and have nefarious reasons for accessing female spaces makes her uncomfortable.

Could she possibly check her enormous privilege for just one second? Some of us have actually experienced men doing the things that she can't bring herself to contemplate. Some of us work in jobs that bring us into contact with men who have done these things. Or children who have been harmed by such men.

These ideas she can't contemplate are some people's reality. Not talking about them doesn't make it go away. We can't actually identity our of our past oppression. We can't identify out of material reality.

That's entirely on topic @InvisibleDragon

I completely agree.

Absolutely @InvisibleDragon

@OvaHere

That's entirely on topic *@InvisibleDragon*

I completely agree.

So do I.

@CriticalCondition

AG is worried someone is going to say the word penis again...

G'wan Ben say penis penis penis.

Another one wondering why a is seemingly uncomfortable hearing the word but ok with every other woman seeing the item?
What's with that?

A note that I just ran upstairs to put on a red jumper cos I'm cold and then I read that red and black are nazi colours? Ffs out go the black trews