National Youth/Children's Brass Band (yes, I am in the right section)

[GCSciFiFan]

OMG The crazy gets everywhere!!

Just completed DD's registration for NCBB - they didn't even ask for sex just gender identity with answers:

woman (including transwoman)
man (including transman)
non binary.

Aaargghhh! Have sent the following in reply - wish me luck!

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Dear XXXX

Registration completed – thank you.

However I do have to raise my extreme concern at one of the questions on the registration form. The question asks for Gender Identity , with answers of woman (including transwoman), man (including transman) and non binary.

1. Gender Identity is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. The protected characteristics are sex, and gender reassignment. The Equality Act places obligations on organisations in terms of not discriminating. If the information collected is wrong, misleading or refers to characteristics that are not on the list of protected characteristics then the organisation risks being found in breach of the act.
2. Following on from this, under GDPR organisations are only allowed to collect necessary information – which would be at most those covered by protected characteristics. There is no lawful reason to collect information about other characteristics including “gender identity”. Thus you should only be collecting Sex (male/female).
3. It is not possible for a legally defined transwoman or transman (with a Gender Recognition Certificate) to be a member of the NCBB, as GRCs are not available to under-18s. I would suspect it is almost impossible for NYBB due to the time needed post-18 to gain a GRC. We do not have Self-ID (where everyone is whatever gender they claim to be) in the UK, thus the only relevant characteristic is that of sex. As your organisation seems to believe that women and trans-women belong in the same category, please can you confirm that there will be adequate provision of single-sex only toilet and bathroom facilities for the course? Can you confirm that changing and shower facilities, and sleeping accommodation will be single sex? The Equality Act 2010 specifically says that single-sex exemptions can be used to designate spaces which are only for one sex, and apply to scenarios such as changing rooms (Schedule 3 part 7 sections 26-27) and sleeping arrangements (Schedule 23 part 3). The Act makes it clear that the above exemptions apply even with regard to people undergoing gender reassignment, as long as the exemptions are ‘a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’ (Schedule 3 part 7 section 28). The legitimate aim in this case is the safeguarding of children: You may be aware of the recent articles in the national press on the increase in child on child sexual abuse and the alarming extent of the sexual harassment of girls in school. All children must feel safe in an educational environment, and in this context it is particularly important that girls are able to change and sleep in a single sex space.

For more information this issue, including how to create safe environments for all children I recommend the following websites:

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/who-we-are/
www.sexnotgender.info/
www.transgendertrend.com/product/equality-law-and-statutory-schools-guidance/

I look forward to your response.
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Oh look TheShadowyFeminist. A quick derail. I see that the notes reveal that the EHRC had their sticky hands over the census debacle -FPFW spectacularly got the courts to overturn this.
And the mention of the long awaited (4 / 5 years?) trans guidelines for schools - which of course will now never happen. Once they insist that girls must be forced by law to undress, use toilets and share dormitories in schools with boys it will expose the dangerousness of their position.

Sorry GCSciFiFan for the derail.

What a stonking email from you OP, absolutely brilliant. Hope this makes the Arts Council sit up and think about the safeguarding of children! Please keep us posted, and thank you on behalf of women and girls. Sunlight.

Interesting reply :

“ We have checked and the error is ours as the original question related to trustees and staff I.e. adults.

I have asked for the form to be changed with immediate effect. Thank you for alerting us to this error and apologies for any offence or concerns this may have caused.”

Good result I think!!!

Well done 👍

Excellent result OP! 😃

@persistentwoman

Oh look TheShadowyFeminist. A quick derail. I see that the notes reveal that the EHRC had their sticky hands over the census debacle -FPFW spectacularly got the courts to overturn this. And the mention of the long awaited (4 / 5 years?) trans guidelines for schools - which of course will now never happen. Once they insist that girls must be forced by law to undress, use toilets and share dormitories in schools with boys it will expose the dangerousness of their position.

Sorry GCSciFiFan for the derail.

There's a veritable gold mine of info on what the EHRC have been up to on the FOI website. A well motivated person could build up quite a picture on all the FOIs on what the EHRC have been obsessing over for the past few years.

Interesting...
well done.

Fantastic OP!

Excellent result! Well done

brilliant, this just shows it IS worth complaining, not only have they changed what their form but several people will have been educated in the process

Well done!

Your email was brilliant and the outcome great.

But, if the question was for the adults, then are the adults who will be supervising the kids sleeping etc be divided by sex too? How are they defining an adult woman?

Or maybe it was only Arts Council related?

Well done. I'm sure they all have their thinking caps on now.

The fucking Arts Council is entirely captured and makes all the organisations they give grants to jump through ludicrous hoops.

Great letter OP

But, if the question was for the adults, then are the adults who will be supervising the kids sleeping etc be divided by sex too?

This was my thought too, as the reply said it was for staff, would this include staff accompanying the children on residential trips ?

What a brilliant email you sent! Great result too1

I think to most people you will come across as a bigoted psycho

she really won"t

I have copied and pasted and sent myself an email, just in case the thread disappears. Thanks.

Excellent email, OP and a positive result. It's good to see an organisation say "yep, our mistake" and change their info straight away as opposed to doubling down. Good for you NCBB for sorting it so quickly.

@pheebumbalatti

I think to most people you will come across as a bigoted psycho.

Obviously, NCBB don't think so and that is what matters.

If being a bigoted psycho means that dd doesn’t have to get naked or sleep sharing with someone with a penis then I’m good with that!

There are exemptions in the equality act specifically to protect women’s single sex (penis free) spaces and standing up for our (and our daughters) rights to these is not bigoted at all!

I think to most people you will come across as a bigoted psycho.

Nope, not all, and clearly not the youth orchestra or the arts council.

Well done OP. I'm pleased you raised this with them. It's amazing that no one in the admin dept read through this and thought, hang on a minute, how can we know the numbers to allocate sleeping if we have asked this question.

ooh, is child safeguarding being called "bigotted psychoing" now?

It is important for all children, including trans children, to be kept safe from harm. There is so much that could go wrong for children and young people if they are sleeping in the same room as opposite sex children, especially the child that is the opposite sex to everyone else.

That isn’t the Arts Council phrasing for an Annual Return for participants/audiences. It is voluntary equalities data they request of Staff, volunteers and trustees for Equal Ops forms/info gathering for adults.

Glad they have admitted error. Might be useful for ACE to put out a clarification...