Which wave of feminism is the best?

[HarryHarry]

A friend of mine is constantly complaining about 2nd wave feminists. (If it helps to understand her better, she is a sex-positive, man-pleasing type of feminist from California).

I have to say that although I consider myself a feminist I haven’t studied feminism academically and I don’t know which wave happened when or what they were all about. Can someone explain what her problem might be with 2nd wave feminists?

she is a sex-positive, man-pleasing type of feminist

I think you just answered your own question.

2nd wave feminism centres women. 3rd wave faux-feminism centres dicks.

The one that doesn’t pander to penis-havers.

What Cara and Du said. And why does any woman call prostitution “sex-positive”? Not for women’s sake. Which is what feminism is about.

www.bbc.co.uk/archive/second-wave-feminism/zdhw382

The permanent wave.

One that centres women

I tend to see it as more of an ongoing conversation.

The one where we wave at men through the window of our protected sex-segregated spaces.

@HemulenHouse

The one where we wave at men through the window of our protected sex-segregated spaces.

LOL! @HemulenHouse

Which 'wave' is the 'radical' wave? I presumed it was the first but apparently not.

So when people talk about a 4th wave, what would that be about?

Second wave feminists were uppity women who didn’t bother to please men. Now replaced by new ‘manfriendly’ third wave feminists.

Your friend wants men to like her. So she’s distancing herself from the type of women men don’t like.

She’s not a feminist, just an old fashioned man pleaser.

If you’re interested, a good introduction is ‘Feminism’ by Deborah Cameron.

The whole notion of feminist waves is horribly Eurocentric and completely ignores the diverse feminist movements and struggles outside the West. It constructs feminism as a Western phenomenon, even women have advocated for their rights even before the so called first place in many of the countries in the Global South.

I used to be strongly 3rd wave/intersectional and now I lean more to 2nd wave. This is what put me off 3rd wave:

Third wave is a bit like someone who desperately wants change, but doesn't know enough about how the world works, to get it right. It relies on simplistic and idealistic goals but doesn't consider the complexities of women's experiences..

Third wave is mainly 'choice' feminism and believes anything a woman chooses is feminist. It doesn't consider how complicated the idea of 'choice' is. It doesnt account for oppressive power-structures in sexism (althoug it does in racism). It doesn't consider women who don't have a choice/only have shitty choices and how privileged choices might impact on those with less power.

It's also undermining the social and legal recognition of sex-based rights for female people.

It dismisses 2nd wave as conservative, out of date and filled with bitter old ladies. So it is misogynist too.

It also tends to throw a tantrum or a threat if you disagree with it openly, and will try to get you fired.

@lilmishap

Which 'wave' is the 'radical' wave? I presumed it was the first but apparently not.

First wave was Suffrage, so circa 1850s. Second 100 years later.

Obvs the first wave wasn’t called the first wave until after the second wave named it so.

@Kay1341

The whole notion of feminist waves is horribly Eurocentric and completely ignores the diverse feminist movements and struggles outside the West. It constructs feminism as a Western phenomenon, even women have advocated for their rights even before the so called first place in many of the countries in the Global South.

Wouldn’t those Women’s rights movements have their own terms though?

I think it would be shitter if we used the western term ‘Feminism’ to refer to women’s liberation globally, but as it stands the ‘waves’ are specifically talking about 3 points in Western history.

There’s a bit of a backlash that the second wave in the west was mainly educated, mainly white women (What we’d now call ‘privileged’) who didn’t understand the wider experiences of women. But in truth it had multiple strands and there was always a liberal wing and a radical wing and a lot of factionalism. Also a strong Marxist/socialist element.

the second wave in the west was mainly educated, mainly white women (What we’d now call ‘privileged’) who didn’t understand the wider experiences of women

What evidence do you have for this proposition? I was there and I disagree.

I think it is very important to remember that the second wave was inspired by the Civil Rights Movement and consciousness raising meetings of the Second Wave were adopted by the Women's Liberation Movement from the Civil Rights Movement.

Why do you care OP?

It's not as is being a feminist is like singing up for a political party which has set tenets of belief.

Why not make your own mind up about the issues you care about and want to prioritise.

First wave: mid-19th century to women’s suffrage (right to vote), achieved in Britain in 1928 (some women could vote earlier) and in the US in 1920 (but most black women could not vote because of racial discrimination). Important to note here that women in France and Italy only received vote after/during Second World War! Women in Turkey had the vote earlier than women inFrance. So the picture is complex. But the first wave is about legal and political rights.

Second wave: came after the conservative 1950s, in US strong links to civil rights activism. Really takes off in late 60s/early 70s. This is when right to is enshrined in law, in US, UK, various European countries. Also establishment of women’s refuges. So this is about more than legal equality, it is about women’s specific needs. Which is maybe why there is so much often unjustified disparaging of the Second Wave.

sorry, right to abortion (word missing)

The 4th wave is the Radical Wave.

Wouldn’t those Women’s rights movements have their own terms though?

I think it would be shitter if we used the western term ‘Feminism’ to refer to women’s liberation globally, but as it stands the ‘waves’ are specifically talking about 3 points in Western history.

Yeah, I really tend to associate the term feminism with the west, and specifically with second wave feminism. I tend to think of First wave as a Women's Movement. People use the terms interchangeably in many cases and often it doesn't matter, but it's worth having a sense of the difference I think.