Dr Stuart Lorimer Gendercare

[vaginafetishist]

t's fair to say the decision to set up GenderCare, around seven years ago, wasn't an altruistic one. Doctors have mortgages too, and my partner was on the verge of retirement. In the UK, the coalition government showed every sign of squeezing the NHS in what has turned out to be the longest public sector pay freeze for many decades. I was looking for ways to generate more income.

Apparently Dr Stuart Lorimer was at the Detransitioners event in Manchester. There are loads of youtube videos of young women excitedly describing their first appointment in his clinic. This is his explanation of the thinking behind Gendercare.

It is interesting to hear of your experiences Transwolf.

Personally I don’t think a doctor in private practice identifying a “gap in the market”, is in itself anything any more immoral than any consultant with a private practice. In the context of the actual website, he seems to be saying that there were not quality services available, he thought he could provide them, and also saw it as a professional challenge.

Trans wolf’s experience is as an adult already transitioning. I think this is different from the child/young adult approaching at the point of wanting to transition. At that point, affirmation should NOT be the approach. Rather investigation, questioning, assessment.

However, I also think that if anyone is seeking irreversible and dramatic surgery like a mastectomy, again, their motives should be questioned, and dysphoria assessed. @TransWolf , you say he answered questions but gave no opinion re phalloplasty or mastectomy? I think he should have given specific information about these procedures, or at least the one you opted for. And I think he should have explored why you wanted this. I don’t think a more passive just answering questions is enough to be honest. I get that it is easier for the patient not to deal with questions, that it can be awkward for a doctor to quiz an adult in this way. But it is often vulnerable people with other issues who seek transition, and the dreadful potential of regretting such a visceral irreversible procedure means that caution really must be exercised.

I think it is good that he attended the conference. Even if it has not given him pause for thought yet, hopefully it will be part of a process, now that detransitioning is more out there.

Welcome to FWR, Transwolf.

Is it, therefore, your opinion that Lorimer attended this event in order to gain information about better diagnosing young women who are questioning their "gender"?

Because you describe a very comfortable atmosphere in his clinic. That's nice. However, if comfortable = affirmation, how do you propose such clinics avoid false positive diagnoses and treatments going forwards, thus avoiding regret, desisting and detransitioning.

I'm glad that you are happy with the interventions you have received, but the entire point of this meeting was that larger and larger numbers of women are coming forward to say that, in their cases, the interventions they received were inappropriate. Which is a serious issue, I'm sure you'll agree.

He was very good to talk to, great listener and was someone I’d feel pleased to see. I also (as part of NHS system) saw other doctors too but I felt I had the best rapport with him

Could you have felt this way because he was affirming everything you said, and offering you the solutions you wanted?

There was another audience member at the Manchester event who had worked with GIDS, and he said that there was a practice, and a culture, of total affirmation, and that even voicing concern was frowned upon.

As for not applauding if someone is in a capacity to listen then it’s often better that they maintain a neutral stance.

I was talking about the very end of the event, when applause could signify no more than thanks to those who organised and participated.

Lorimer often prescribes ‘bridging’ prescriptions to 18 year olds at the first appoint in his private practice - that seems quite different to your experience.

Firstly I’m a bit confused with the “furious” scribbling down of notes - I feel that’s quite a emotive statement to be making when someone may have just been concentrating

The nature of the event necessitated total concentration - to listen firstly, to the panel of experts, but then especially to the panel of young de-transitioners. The stories were intense. They each were very articulate, honest, and brave.

I can't help but feel that the gulf is so total between TRA ideology, and those who work to promote or enable it; and people critical of transgender ideology - that he could only have been listening in a detached and very clinical way, so to counter what was being said with ready made responses.

If he had listened with open heart and mind to what the young women had been saying he could not have helped but be moved. And he must have experienced doubt in his method if he had. Have to say I did not clap myself, as clapping is not really my way of expressing solidarity or empathy. Being 'fully present', is though

There is a prevailing opinion in today's society - and possibly in medical circles - that "treatment" for 'gender dysphoria' is a medical route.

The alternative (psychological care) doesn't seem to be given equal measure. But of course in private practice, you'd be unlikely to get as much interest, and it possibly wouldn't pay as well.

Increasingly it is being offered as an alternative for other forms of dysphoria that would potentially result in plastic surgery.

Are other treatment options being offered in private practice? Were you offered alternative treatment options wolf?

The issue is two fold: private practice relies on a level of custom as well as patient advertising/ enthusiasm about treatment. As many de transed people say, they were so determined that medical transition is the answer, they wouldn't entertain other options.

It's a self perpetuating circle. And why the de trans stories are an issue for private practice.

In many ways I’d have had an easy life if I would have been able to continue living in my previous life but I was absolutely miserable and it wasn’t me. I do feel happy now as I have the life I want but I’m also really glad I took my time

Thank you for your honesty.

Rather than, necessarily, pushing a narrative, is it not the case that Dr Lorimer affirms the path you have chosen; listens to, and affirms, your feelings - without judgment. He smooths the pathway you have chosen. Makes it possible? He is not a therapist, as such, but a gender consultant.....

Can I ask you what is the life that you wanted, and that you now have? Why do you feel you could not have that life before?

Lorimer often prescribes ‘bridging’ prescriptions to 18 year olds at the first appoint in his private practice - that seems quite different to your experience.

A lot has changed in 10 years. Referrals are much higher.

There will be many many more detransitioning people in another 10 years.

Affirmative approaches are coming into schools, on tv etc. It's almost impossible for children who are struggling with the issues of how gender affects society, and are also vulnerable (bathing in mind yp have other issues or conditions such as autism) to be immune to this affirmative approach.

It's vital there's balance to make sure people are choosing the correct path.

I'm glad you seem to be very happy wolf and it was clearly the correct route for you. There must be challenge and scrutiny for safeguarding.

And referring to alliances with 'the far right' as a critique of criticism and analysis doesn't wash in the slightest when we are discussing safeguarding.

*I’ve been on a relatively low dose of Testosterone for around 7 years now and only side effects is a lower voice, facial hair and a widows peak8

There was a quite a bit of discussion at the event about the effects of hormones. The fact that long term, and the more hidden health consequences, have not been studied.

Two of the women at the event had had hysterectomies and their ovaries removed too......the effects of testosterone are going to inter-play with oestrogen produced by the ovaries in those that still have ovaries, in a way that is different to to those who have had their ovaries removed........impacts on blood, circulation, bone density and any number of other initially less obvious 'side effects'. The body is systemic. Each part acts/functions in relation to the other parts.

Because you describe a very comfortable atmosphere in his clinic. That's nice. However, if comfortable = affirmation, how do you propose such clinics avoid false positive diagnoses and treatments going forwards, thus avoiding regret, desisting and detransitioning

Precisely!

The problem, though, is that to work as a gender clinician you have to accept the whole idea of transgender ideology...that it is possible to be born in the wrong body. For a clinician to suggest that there may be other roots to feelings of dysphoria, is to cast doubt on the practice. Also because clinical practice in GIDS always takes an affirmative approach - because it is believed that the child; the adolescent; the adult, knows their own feelings and process better than anyone else....there will never be any questioning - only listening.

It is a therapeutic approach which requires, first of all, that one has accepted that 'being trans' is a natural and healthy expression of the self - rather than a self struggling with various issues in life and unable, therefore, to integrate mind and body.

And honestly @Transwolf, if all transitioners started at 25, had several appointments before beginning medical transition and had no notable ill effects on their health and no regrets, I really wouldn’t be arsed about it.

Fact is, on Saturday I met 7 young women who have regrets, some of whom have had life altering medical procedures at 21 (as in, total hysterectomy, including ovaries) and who will now be life long medical patients.

In contrast, in my 40s, I had to have 4 counselling appointments before my hospital would even consider blood testing me for my mum’s BRCA2 fault, because a positive result would lead to the option of mastectomy/hysterectomy.

And that was after two bio children and a step child, the oldest of whom was already at university.

I want young, gender questioning women to be given the same respect and care for their health and fertility as I was given, as a middle aged woman with a potential cancer risk. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, especially when the procedures are the same but the consequences for younger women are so much greater.

As was suggested at the Manchester event, society largely follows technology, and in this case pharmacology and surgical technique.
In every age there have been dominant medical techniques and narratives that have shaped the treatment of human misery and suffering.

Aligned with the thinking and ideas behind Queer Theory, and post modernist ideas of the self and society....we have a full on transgender storm - fuelled by social media, pornography, fetish....and you name it........The most vulnerable, to my mind, are the children, the young girls and women who are being led along a path of medical and surgical intervention which will have life long consequences.

In an age where we should be looking to heal our relationship with nature, the earth, the planet and our bodies, instead we find a movement which is at odds with nature and the body...and using chemicals and crude surgery to attempt to 'fix' it.

Blimey a lot of Drivel and Mumsnet has a lot to answer for - Bigots aren't qualified practioners the last time I looked ! would it help if he was gay? or would that be another target of abuse ? A Right wing people forum, maybe start talking about Equality and see where that get you guys ! Good luck!

On the first panel were 4 ‘qualified practitioners’, 2 doctors, 1 psychotherapist, one psychologist.

There were other former and current employees of GIDs in the audience.

Happy to help clear up your obvious confusion, littlebloke

He was also one of the doctors who wrote to the regulatory body about Helen Webberley’s GenderGP business.

I was going to ask for a source for this, but I've now found it here (in the answers to 'Are you being investigated by the GMC?').
www.gendergp.com/queries/

Found via this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3402111-The-UKs-gender-doctors

Can I ask you what is the life that you wanted, and that you now have? Why do you feel you could not have that life before?

I'd also like an answer to this question Transwolf. I hope you'll come back to this thread with an answer.

Why people feel they need to change their bodies is a question which really does need to be answered.

Hi Transwolf,
I don’t know if you saw this quote earlier from the link that a PP posted:

in WPATH, they say you should be screened for “anxiety, depression, self-harm, a history of abuse and neglect, compulsivity, substance abuse, sexual concerns, personality disorders, eating disorders, psychotic disorders, and autistic spectrum disorders.”

I know you said it was 2 years before you got hormones, so what was happening in those 2 years? Was it just waiting for appointments or would you say you were thoroughly screened for all these?

(I know this was all before you met Dr. Lorimer. Were the appointments you had with him related to the surgery pathway?)

Thanks for posting here, by the way . I hope you find that we are genuinely wanting to hear trans men’s voices.

This is a slight aside I realise but having read all that trans wolf and the responses I was reminded that a dentist once asked me if I was bulimic. I think there is a duty of care for patients and it can involve intrusive questions. It is also necessary at times for safeguarding. I realise that you were and are an adult and have made these decisions as an adult but it's clear that even as adults we can regret decisions we were once very firm in. I'm happy that you have no such regrets and if I was able to I would ensure that everyone was 25+ before making such permanent things decisions.

yes I think the contrats between the cautious approach women receive when they eg ask for sterilisation and the treatment of these young women needs explaining

www.economist.com/open-future/2019/12/03/gender-identity-is-hard-but-jumping-to-medical-solutions-is-worse

Lorimer is a doctor of psychiatry NOT endocrinologist, yet he dispenses hormone injections to vulnerable young women. He plays lip service to advising them to set his recommended endocrinologist and requests they get their hormone levels and other bloods tested at their NHS surgery, but really doesn't seem to care as long as the money keeps rolling in. Seriously creepy man.

Do you know him grim?

Never met him, but know of him.

I have heard rumours that he will cease to prescribe ‘bridging hormones’ in April. Mumsnetters more informed than I have suggested this could be due to insurance issues.

I have also heard that some of the other private practitioners under the umbrellas of Gendercare and/or The London Transgender Clinic have started to increase the number of appointments before recommending hormone treatment/referring to a private endocrinologist.

Only from one appointment to two, but if the wave of new detransitioners is inspiring additional caution in gender practitioners, that must be a good sign, even if only a small sign.

I think we are going to see increasing amounts of caution shown by these clinics.