anyone else been ditched by friends for having Gender critical views?

[JetCityWoman]

Long time user new account

just that really? I've been quite vocal of the importance of biology and a lot of my female friends have basically told me to fuck off. were talking 5+ year friendships all gone because I refuse to accept men can be women.

anyone else navigating this weird state of being?

It's a minority view and a controversial one. Even Dworkin was in favour of trans rights.

bingo many people get called "Terf" now who are in favour of trans rights. Including most of the women posting here. I'm surprised you don't know this, you seem informed about LGBT issues. Mind you it depends what you mean by "rights". I don't count the right to compete in whatever sporting category you see fit or the right to access any space you want to as "rights" myself. Rights to mr are things like living life free from harassment or violence, equal pay, equal access to employment, equal access to medical care, that kind of thing.

smiled TERF stands for trans exclusionary radical feminist. Originally it meant feminists with an extreme view that trans women should never be recognised as women, even as a courtesy. Over time it's come to mean anyone who doesn't accept that trans women are women, identical to any other. People who don't think that biology is important, only how you feel in your head.
Most people believe biology to be the way they know themselves and others to be male or female. Most people know that women are especially vulnerable on the basis of their biology, e.g. when pregnant or breastfeeding. Most people know that in a race or fight between a male bodied person and a fenale bodied person, the male bodied person will probably win regardless of whether they identify as female. Therefore most people are TERFs. We are called TERFs to shame us into stopping talking about the differences between women and trans women because when we do talk, trans ideology (a trans woman IS a woman) is exposed.

Make no mistake, this " trans women ARE women" position is extreme and I don't think it's what most trans people believe themselves. Its a position held by atrans rights actovists For some reason it's gained huge traction though and so now we are starting to see sports letting trans women compete with women, womens prisons being asked to admit trans women who have been convicted of rape or boast about their working penis, trans women who have made no steps to transition in appearance so look like men taking places in women's shelters and it goes on.

Thanks Datun for posting this.

This is spot on:

Nonbinaryness is held up as queering gender yet it actually props up gender roles. Its effectively saying that male and female sex stereotypes are accurate and right. That women should be pressured to wear nail varnish and men to be macho. By setting themselves apart from these sterotypes they are supporting the validity of the gender system. Because if it was ok to just be an effeminate man or a masculine woman they'd do that. By making up this whole new identity it's saying people who are not non binary whether trans or not must stay in their pink and blue boxes. Its only ok for special NB people today mess about in the middle. It therefore seems to me quite regressive and conservative.

@BingoFlamingo Dworkin died in 2005. In 2005 I - as someone who had been in various LGBT+ movements for decades - would also have described myself as someone in favour of trans rights.

And you know what? I still do. But what we all mean by "trans rights" has diverged wildly. The difference between now and 2005 is that this wholesale rejection of reality, and this gleeful kicking of women under the bus (particularly but not exclusively lesbians) hadn't in 2005 quite gained the traction it has now.

When we talk about "trans rights" in 2017, we aren't talking about the same trans rights we were talking about in 2005, or 1995, or 1985. When I think of "trans rights" I think of the right of people to live in dignity and safety, whatever their gender expression. What some activists are currently calling "trans rights" I'd just go ahead and call "male supremacy and rape culture".

While Dworkin was alive nobody was spouting nonsense about trans women literally being biological women. Please cite statements where she supoorted anything like that.

@Archeryannie.
Exactly this.

And I’m deeply concerned by the number of women, of all ages, who would describe themselves as feminists but seem to have not the slightest awareness, let alone insight, into the current issues.

Same as Mantegnaria - outside of the internet, nobody I know mentions these issues at all. I don't even see it discussed on my fb feed.

deydododatdodontdeydo

Same as Mantegnaria - outside of the internet, nobody I know mentions these issues at all. I don't even see it discussed on my fb feed.

And that’s the problem. People don’t realise what’s going on. They think it’s very fringe, niche.

And yet, laws are about to be changed which will eliminate biological categories. Make them meaningless, not just culturally, but legally.

No other law of this magnitude has been proposed without the general public having a fair idea.

Many people are dismissing transgenderism because they see it along the same lines as the 72 different genders youth movement.

It isn’t. Those 72 different genders are not going to be enshrined in law.

Try posting something on your Facebook page. Something gender critical. It would be interesting to see whether people do have an idea, but they’re just too frightened to speak out.

You might be surprised.

When I think of "trans rights" I think of the right of people to live in dignity and safety, whatever their gender expression. What some activists are currently calling "trans rights" I'd just go ahead and call "male supremacy and rape culture"

Perfectly put. It is sad that people with gender dysphoria who found relief by identifying as the other sex are now caught up in the hostility generated by TRAs. I am also mystified as to why gay men are not pushing back more against the appropriation of the LGBT movement by a bunch of straight kids with blue hair calling themselves queer (lesbians are pushing back but no one listens to them).

The comments on that NB thread are great. The usual 'rargh bigot' responses though predictably and no attempt to answer any of the questions, as no rational answer exists, and they know it.

That said at the moment I am very much in favour of NB. As apparently a bunch of NB women are calling themselves transwomen and getting activists in a frothing state Tempted to start IDing as a transwoman myself. As if transwomen ARE women, then women are transwomen too. Genuinely think all 'cis' (hate that fucking word) should start IDing as transwomen. To expose how bullshit the arguments are. According to gendertrender...LGBT groups are actually kicking out people who are saying 'cis' or NB women are not transwomen, and this has twitter in such a state its quite glorious

HornyTortoise

Exactly. When the definition of a woman is ‘anyone who says they are’, you have to know you’re setting up trouble for yourself if that’s how you define words.

What’s interesting is how this idea has caught fire.

Women have been saying for ages, okay if I identify as dog I am a dog, right? But now it’s really spreading.

And yes, of course, at the moment, this is only being played out in online arguments. But since that’s how most of this was played out anyway and laws are still being changed, I can easily see how it could start to seep out.

If transwomen are women without any kind of tangible, verifiable component, then women are also transwomen on the same basis.

I’ve definitely noticed a lot of infighting in the last couple of months. Transsexuals trying to distance themselves from autogynephiles, a huge difference of opinion over whether dressing in a feminine way should mean anything, non-binary people being dissed, etc.

The achingly, narcissistic subjective means of defining who, or rather what, you are is now coming home to roost.

outside of the internet, nobody I know mentions these issues at all

I wouldn't have thought about it really until, in the course of the past four years:

A man we'd known for years through our kids' hobbies transitioned
The daughter of a college friend transitioned
One of my daughter's classmates transitioned
My workmate's daughter transitioned
My son moved school and landed in Trans And Gender Unicorn Central College, where half the year seem to have unknowable pronouns
and, last month, a child we've known from the age of 5 changed her Facebook profile to male and started sharing loads of #Notadebate stuff (yes, she has blue hair, is that a thing?)

Either it's grown exponentially over the past few years; or it's always been there but now people feel OK to admit their true selves (my kids definitely seem to believe this); or I somehow have a Transing effect on half our acquaintance. Oops.

Lancelottie

Yes, blue hair seems to be a definite thing. Personally I’m not sure what that means though.

And the explanation that because people are more tolerant, therefore more kids are coming out doesn’t hold water.

Since it’s mostly girls, where are all the middle-aged women who are now unutterably relieved that they can finally be their true selves?

Why is it only men who seem to constitute these late transitioners?

#notafetish

Postmodern thought has turned into something of an Achilles heel.

Where are all the middle aged women coming out as trans? Here, surely? I mean, Stonewall’s definition seems to cover most of us...

(yes, she has blue hair, is that a thing?)

I blame this woman.

Since it’s mostly girls and the rate of self harm amongst girls has shot up. I can't help but see the two are related.

yes, I have seen some damn entitled comments from trans people RE women should donate wombs, eggs, ovaries etc when they've had kids - ignoring the fact those wombs and ovaries are bloody important and hysterectomies can come with a raft of issues.

Theres also the whole trans ID males believing they can actually have womb transplants. We can already see the difficulties with organ transplants with people who REALLY NEED THEM and that life expectancies are short, that the transplanted organ shelf life is often limited. Who in their right mind would even contemplate a transplant with all the known side effects from the cocktail of drugs when they don't even need one? Its not logical. Its delusion.

Even seen some Trans discussing the idea of growing their own wombs having read up on lab grown organs. Its a fascinating area of science and offers hope to those with organ failure. But the male body is not equipped for pregnancy.

I am grateful for the Trans people who are so grounded and understand themselves, their voices need to be heard alongside our own. They are the ones with the rational take on this whole thing but they to get torn apart as TERFs. jack monroe is a 'confirmed terf' in the trans circles I've dipped into and she's trans FFS. This is why its so absurd.

about tumblr. A close friend of mine stopped using twitter and started using tumblr more and more. I'm talking using tumblr more than some of us use mumsnet. A normal woman who came out as 'trans' dyed her hair blue and wrote off a lot of people as 'transphobes' actually cutting her friends list down to just 25 people. she's married with kids. I'd love to know what her husband thinks. She was, to me at least, a normal woman like me. Rarely wore dresses but dressed up for nights out etc. This I can only attributed to tumblr IMO. There was no Inkling before that she was trans. The only possible issue is she's always had an unhealthy relationship with food. Often going on diets of all descriptions. Juice diets, low carb, no carb, vegan, bread free, no grains, local diet, soup etc etc. So for her i feel the 'trans' thing is just an extension of her disordered eating/poss eating disorder and another way to feel in control. I'm not female therefore this isn't an issue sorta thing but that's leading to issues around periods and her female body.

Anorexia is over represented in the trans-community. The theory is that because they are discriminated against, they turn to anorexia as a means of control.

It’s just a theory. A biased one in my opinion. And doesn’t account for people who have anorexia first.

Every single mental health issue or personality disorder that trans-people have often seems to be attributed to discrimination on the basis of the fact that they are trans.

Not that they are trans/deluded, because of their mental health/personality disorder.

Theres also the whole trans ID males believing they can actually have womb transplants. ... Its not logical. Its delusion.

Although it's medically impossible, that's not what lies at the heart of this. They would applaud these organs being removed, even though they'd then have to be chucked. Why would they think like this?

One answer: it is because it would remove the organs from women. It would make women lesser. It would serve as a punishment for women having the absolute gall in possessing these organs which transwomen can't have.

I dunno. Who was it said you should never attribute something to malice what could be attributed to stupidity?

Maybe some really do think that medical science can work wonders and make them genuinely functioning female bodies. Maybe all the surrounding confusion that they are now having fed to them, including in school, means that they have no clue about the limits of actual biology.

My own daughter was very much under the impression that transitioning 'treatment' would change someone's genes so that they were then fully the opposite sex. After all, people were telling her that it was possible to transition and have the opposite puberty, and to do that, you'd need different genes, right? So she assumed it could be done. She had no idea how, but then, she's not a biochemist.

I had a bit of a head/table moment over that one. She's allegedly quite a bright child, after all.

Some people are just young, uninformed, a bit thick or a combination of all three.

datun also BPD, anxiety, depression and ASD are. Lots of co morbidity of mental health issues in the transgender community from what I have seen.

There is a distinct difference between male transitioners and female transitioners.

Many of the female transitoners have suffered some type of abuse and transition is an escape from the femaleness they think is the reason for it. Of course this is my Opinion but I have started to wonder if female transition could be a symptom of PTSD or CPTSD a coping strategy that diverts the pain of the abuse into something else for some. It almost feels they are trying to escape the abuse they suffered.

As women we have all seen it. Friends or ourselves have been abused/assaulted/harassed we sometimes do a temporary hiding of our bodies. Others go the other way to the hyper feminine side. I did both but I as a teen, because I hated. despised the Sexual attention I got from older males and dads of friends, I did defeminise myself and threw myself into sport. Thankfully getting a grip on that harassment and the home abuse with intensive therapy I am comfortable in my 30s body complete with war wounds.

Of course this doesn't apply to every person and I just wish Drs, Psyches, anyone, was brave enough to actually study this phenomenon.

nauticant I agree. Its the classic if I can't have it then you shouldn't. Its childish tbf but this is much more scary its a big part of the reason I am where I am with my views on adoption, abortion, surrogacy etc. Even IVF in some circumstances tbh. Women's bodies are commodities and if they can't be commodities we shouldn't be allowed to posses them.
I have had trans women try to tell me I'm not a woman because my womb doesn't work properly (5+ misscarriages, an abortion and 1 kid I'm very open online about my experiences because this needs to be talked about)

If transwomen are women without any kind of tangible, verifiable component, then women are also transwomen on the same basis.

Yes. They cannot tell 'cis' women they are not transwomen either, as then they have to refer back to biological sex to explain what a 'real' transwoman is..when apparently sex is irrelevant and does not exist. Its such a great way to get them to tie themselves in knots, I am surprised it wasn't thought of sooner tbh. It still wont protect women if the laws do get changed though..but its a good start.

I’ve definitely noticed a lot of infighting in the last couple of months. Transsexuals trying to distance themselves from autogynephiles, a huge difference of opinion over whether dressing in a feminine way should mean anything, non-binary people being dissed, etc.

Well yes, naturally transsexual people must find it all really bizarre,. and really, all these men just saying they are women and expecting lesbians to suck their female penises..a.re making a mockery of a genuine condition. I am not surprised that transsexuals are rebelling against being grouped in with these narcissistic misogynistic assholes, and those who simply have a fetish. Transsexualism should not be in with those people. We should have transsexuals...and the narcissists and fetishists. I don't even think the second group should have a proper name, I think they should just practice their fetishes but not invade female spaces to do so...and the narcissists should just crawl back under whatever rock they came from under. I would like the misogynists to do that too...but they won't, they will just regroup to discover another way they can attack womens rights.

The transwomen I have met have been abused too. Bullied to fuck in single sextet [homophobic] schools, repressed in extreme Protestant [homophobic] families, from very conflict-ridden homes with absent fathers.Transition as a way of leaving that abused [gay,autistic] person behind makes total sense to me.

But none of this is relevant, because being transition is not a cultural or mental health phenomenon, is it? Apparently it's not allowed to be.

Aargh autocorrect is fucking me over again. Hope the gist is clear.

I’m starting to need a serious intervention I think – at work they’re having a transgender day of remembrance with Susie Green and Peter Tatchell on a panel and I find it staggering that two women every week are murdered by men and there’s only been what, one transgender person murdered in England since 2009? According to Wikipedia anyway. I am so upset and angry that this shit is now getting into my work life too, and I’m powerless to say anything for fear of risking my job. I really just can’t cope with it anymore.