anyone else been ditched by friends for having Gender critical views?

[JetCityWoman]

Long time user new account

just that really? I've been quite vocal of the importance of biology and a lot of my female friends have basically told me to fuck off. were talking 5+ year friendships all gone because I refuse to accept men can be women.

anyone else navigating this weird state of being?

cooroo

We’re similar.

I’m 56 and became a feminist at uni. I can’t discuss these issues at all with my DD. She has just left home, though, and I’m thinking of writing to her to explain my views, in the hope that she can see that if people who have a history of supporting vulnerable and marginalised groups have concerns around what some of the developments mean for women and children, they may at least be worth listening to.

I don't talk about it. My slight problem is that I'm GC, fine, but also am transphobic, to the point where I've had to stop one section of my work as I couldnt do it effectively. That's not fine and it makes me a poor vector for these ideas.

I think that, until you have really looked into the full madness of the TRA movement, it is difficult to comprehend. I don't think I would have believed anyone who tried to tell me about the cotton ceiling until I read it with my own eyes. So a fully clued-up GC woman (or man) trying to explain the whole TRA agenda to a non-clued up person is likely to come across as crazy and paranoid.

It's often more effective to focus on one aspect of the TRA movement that the person you are speaking to will understand. So I turned DM by talking about shared hospital wards, and I'm now working on my sporty SIL by talking about men taking women's medals.

I have been surprised at the amount of people who are utterly convinced of their “rightness” when it comes to trans issues. For example, in the same way that we know it is utterly unacceptable to hold or express racist views, or be homophobic, those expressing concerns over current trans seem to be considered in the same way. I saw it just this weekend where a person’s “disgusted” reaction just ended a decent discussion and their attempts to shame people for their hate and bigoted views made huge tension. It’s very scary because I am seeing discussion shut down over and over again because people are too scared to even explore the issues for fear of the above reactions. If we can’t even discuss the issues, how can we address them or express our fears?

His view (after a long row, which ended unresolved and occasionally flares up again) is in 20 years time I'll see that my position is like that of the racists in S Africa who said apartheid was OK because it was separate but equal. It's not going to end my marriage, but it is our first real disagreement in years.

I’m actually really worried he is right! But only in so much that trans take over of women’s spaces will be so complete that we will all have to pretend that we find it acceptable and The Right Thing because to not do so would lead to shunning and even criminal convictions.

One of my male GNC friends just wanted reassurance that I hadnt turned into a homophobe.

DJBaggySmalls this is one of the reasons I've often started the discussion about this with how utterly, blatantly homophobic trans activism is, because the (nice, liberal) people who think trans activism is just a natural extension of the gay rights movement, of course they;d support it, often have no bloody idea how homophobic and deeply conservative it is.

I've had a few difficult moments with my adult daughter, which has made me very sad. My teenage son is currently trying to decide what he thinks - the sport issue is on his mind in particular.

I don't think the TRA movement will face serious opposition until gay men start opposing it. No one gives a fuck what women think, but gay men would be powerful opponents because they are men and because it would be impossible for 'progressives' to label them as anti-LGBT (logically the same should be true of lesbians but it isn't because they are women so their place is in the wrong).

I am wary of sharing my gender critical views with people, unless I know I can trust them. Outside of the internet that is basically only a close relative of mine.

But I do have experience with losing a long term friend to a cult-like organization.

I had a friend I was close with since before high school. Our friendship came to an abrupt halt after I refuse to become a christian (I am an atheist, but I don't talk about that much offline either).
She was always religious, but we never talked about it, apart from that we knew that she had a religion and I didn't. Several years before we fell out, she had joined a very strict church and she started mentioning religion a lot more. This included asking me if my coworker, who was dating a member of her church, was sleeping with him, because "he was in the church band and only virgins could be in the band". She once took me to a birthday party of a friend of hers where I discovered I was the only one there who was not a member of that church and the only one there without a religion. They tried to talk about religion with me, but I wouldn't engage.

Eventually she called me a "bad person" and worried that I "was going to go to hell because I don't believe in Jesus Christ". I got really angry with her and she got really angry with me and from then on we haven't spoken to each other at all anymore.

Anyone, sorry for the derail, but I can relate to how much it hurts to lose a friend.

Just...fear of being branded transphobic is ruling all at the minute.

I definitely think this is the case with some. Some accept it unquestioningly I think because they've been fed the message that the TRA line is the progressive one and any who differ are evil bigots, so their social media for example has become an echo chamber where the only interaction with an alternative viewpoint is shouts of "TERFs" and how awful they are, if that makes sense. However there are others who just know to speak up could be damaging - two of my best friends agree with me on this issue but will only really talk about it to me. I used to keep quiet about it at school etc but have started being more vocal now (not least because I'm finding it increasingly difficult not to be), which hasn't gone down too well with some. It has also annoyed me the line of the feminist society at my school is very much the TRA one, which I worry is being forced on many, especially young girls who start engaging with feminism through that and are being told anyone who opposes it is an evil TERF bigot. I'm trying to work out how to try to oppose this so part of doing that has had to be being more vocal - which isn't without its reprucussions. I've had a few arguments about it but I don't feel I can pretend not to feel as I do anymore. On the plus side, I have engaged with a boy on this who listened and changed his mind because he just hadn't considered the safety implications for women and girls.

My parents fully agree with me and share outrage at what's happening; one of my younger brothers does as well, so that's positive (I haven't really discussed it at length with my other brother).

Also, I didn't mean in my previous post that there are only people who accept it unquestioningly and those who are too afraid to speak up - there are some of course who are fully behind it all and passionately advocate for it, but I meant in terms of some of the others.

I'm in my 30s. Friends who disagreed with me are mid 20s and early 40s.

those who agree with me actually all work with vulnerable people. A nurse who works on urology wards (sees a lot of male ID trans) so logically cannot fathom why they should be on female wards because of their own medical needs. Worry they would be harmed through lack of expertise. Ditto Trans ID females on a urology ward. Not to mention the lack of dignity for all. It was horrendous on the maternity ward that dads were allowed in from 9am. No chance of a dignified walk to the shower whilst being gawped at or learning to breastfeed.

Early 20s and an early 50s home carer can see massive implications for vulnerable patients who currently request female care staff for a multitude of reasons.

Social worker who cannot say anything because of her job but is trying to protect trans kids with a plethora of mental health needs alongside the gender issues. She wants these kids to be treated for their depression, anxiety, Social exclusion etc before they even entertain transitioning.

I think because they've been fed the message that the TRA line is the progressive one and any who differ are evil bigots, so their social media for example has become an echo chamber where the only interaction with an alternative viewpoint is shouts of "TERFs" and how awful they are

This, all of this. I cannot even begin to fathom how bloody homophobic the whole thing is. And the sexism. I've actually been told I should 'donate my womb to a trans woman' because its oppressive i don't use it for what its intended. I've been told I should donate my eggs for trans people.

Slight aside but its because of the views of some trans people I've explored what surrogacy entails, Egg donation, IVF etc. Read stores from surrogate and prospective parents. Because of that I am now wholly against surrogacy in any form. Women bodies cannot and should not be rented, they are not a commodity. Its often poor women who are 'rented' by richer couples. IVF... still trying to figure that out tbh. Sperm donation is pretty painless but the risks involved for women to sell their eggs. Not sure I support it when women need a way to make money. fwiw I have fertility issues so I'm not saying this from a place of child filled safety and no experience of loss and TTC. just to make that clear.

Right I'll stop. Off on a tangent now!

I've actually been told I should 'donate my womb to a trans woman' because its oppressive i don't use it for what its intended. I've been told I should donate my eggs for trans people.

They said this to a woman struggling to conceive? Bloody hell.

MsGame I have been surprised at the amount of people who are utterly convinced of their “rightness” when it comes to trans issues. For example, in the same way that we know it is utterly unacceptable to hold or express racist views, or be homophobic, those expressing concerns over current trans seem to be considered in the same way.

This infuriates me so much. And it's so often people who consider themselves "free thinkers"!! The same people who will happily be unpleasant to or exclude others, provided the person doesn't fall into an "ism" they care about. Like, no joined-up thinking... just "racism is wrong, homophobia is wrong, transphobia is wrong..." without thinking why it's wrong.

But how have TAs done this? How has it been presented as a done deal??

I've actually been told I should 'donate my womb to a trans woman' because its oppressive i don't use it for what its intended. I've been told I should donate my eggs for trans people.

Holy shit, JetCityWoman, that's horrendous, I am so sorry.

It's so dystopian. Females as just a collection of body parts for males to plunder at will. Women owning their own bodies cast as an "oppressive" act. Fucking hell.

Archery Females as just a collection of body parts for males to plunder at will. Women owning their own bodies cast as an "oppressive" act.

YY, you put it into words so well!

I am 45. I am proud to say I have peaked a few people who have listened to me because I am a lesbian. The feeling of peaking people is worth the social discomfort.

My slight problem is that I'm GC, fine, but also am transphobic

I hear what you're saying and sometimes feel I might be a bucket of seething hatred* but then I realise that I'm simply phobic of harmful speech and harmful actions. (Where harm has to actually mean something, regretted teenage sterilisation trumps hurt feelings for example.)

I don't know that "trans" means. Many of the trans allies don't seem to know either. Not really. TRAs don't care what it means, they're willing for it to mean anything in order to win whatever social media battle they're currently fighting. The definition of what is included, or excluded, or meant, can change completely in the same paragraph and sometimes in the same sentence.

• For any mischief makers about, bucket of seething hatred is a deliberately ironic comment.

Yes, nauticant, I have often thought the same thing. What exactly is trans? I would certainly meet any criteria of transphobic, not believing that trans women are women. The bar for transphobia is so very low. I have started using correct biological pronouns for clarity.

By any of the current definitions, I'm nonbinary trans - though the language I would use to describe that is very different, and since I think gender theory is shit that's out anyway. I'm certainly a lot more trans than some twentysomething dickhead called Jason who thinks wearing a bit of eyeliner makes him oppressed.

I can't imagine this happening to me tbh. I think the majority of people where I live (NW) would be at the idea that a man could actually become a woman. Not because they are well-informed or bothered by the feminist angle. But because transgenderism is still a pretty out-there concept to them, and not something they will have come across in real life.

However, although that isn't in itself at odds with my gender-critical opinions, the ignorance is not really a good thing! Lots of them would probably also be happy to stick with traditional gender steteotypes about lots of things too. My friend didn't want her dd to take up football at school because it's for boys.

In common with thinking in the no-platform, #nodebate movements, trans as used by TRAs and trans allies largely seem to mean "people who we consider to have virtue".

One thing they all seem to learn: all definitions must be circular.

I don't know that "trans" means. Many of the trans allies don't seem to know either.

That’s because it doesn’t actually mean anything, or rather it means too much.

You can fulfil all the criteria of being transgender, but not actually be trans. Because the key word is what you identify as, not what you are.

So you can be a man, with a penis, who is AGP, but not be transgender purely by dint of the fact that you don’t identify as one. Like Grayson Perry.

Or you could be non-binary. As long as you identifiy as being non binary. Which means you can also identify as trans.

Since gender is constructed by society, you can manipulate it in any way you like.

It’s completely meaningless. And it’s becoming more and more evident. As everyone wants to claim it because deciding you’re oppressed seems to give you so many advantages these days.

Is that oppression privilege?

I think the majority of people where I live (NW) would be confused at the idea that a man could actually become a woman. Not because they are well-informed or bothered by the feminist angle. But because transgenderism is still a pretty out-there concept to them, and not something they will have come across in real life.

And I think, further, that feminism and transgenderism are equally seen by a lot of people as 'out-there concepts involving over-thinking middle-class types with too much time on their hands'. There seems to be an attitude that this is all in-fighting amongst the already quite odd, and needn't bother normal people.

You can see it if you read the comments under some of those Twitter feeds - real confusion over whether, say, letting your child do both dance and football is a feminist or transactivist position.

(Signed-up member of the 'quite-odd' team for many reasons, by the way)

No I really am transphobic in a bad way. I dont want to be around trans people (at least the ones ive met). I think this is wrong and to be combated. I had some counselling about it which helped at least name the problem -part of it is that I am very conflicted about my own female body. I hate menstruating and birth and breastfeeding while also being mildly proud of doing all of them along with everything else. I'm useless at fashion and makeup and I rarely get sexual attention (I rarely want it though, I'm fairly screwed up about sexytime too). In my family women do all the work and I do mean all of it. I want to tell men who want to be women to fuck off work harder and get over themselves. The ones I've met are mostly in male dominated professions with commensurate pay, and they relate to me like men do. Another came to a female dominated event and seemd unable to join in, but wouldnt ask for help or respond to overtures. He probably tjinks women are naturally better at talking and relationships without any idea of the amount of practice socialisation and WORK relationships take. I couldn't do it any more.

I separately also think that a person born into one biological category can't move into another and all the other theoretical stuff but my phobia of being around trans people is a genuine problem that I have to work out myself.