Some sort of campaign being organised against MN

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

There are rumblings on Twitter about MN transphobia. Mermaids mention something about a press release.

If anything comes of this I hope MNHQ will ignore.

I don't know which forums orlantina is referring to. There is a gc\qt debate sub on reddit, but to be honest its a bit of a mess at the moment as it seems to have been taken over by aggressive MTT, who seem hell bent on derailing and closing down any discussion.

Actually the discussing gender critical and gender identity page on Facebook is good. The mods do a great job of keeping it balanced (I just lurk though)

hell bent on derailing and closing down any discussion.

This is the thing - I bet it is intimidating sometimes to come on here and have 10 feminists all questioning you (although there's a steady stream of people still happy to do so, and to tell us what we're all doing wrong), but you can come here, we do engage, we will speak, even if we vehemently disagree with your position - we will tell you, and tell you why (and each of us may have different reasons)

If a feminist goes onto a TA board and tries to interact, that is not what happens. In fact, there are many boards on reddit where I'm not even allowed to post, purely because I post on the GC subreddit, or where stating my opinion will get my comment removed and me banned for transphobia, even if that comment is as innocuous as 'Women have Vaginas' - and these boards aren't just TA boards, they're also places like BadWomensAnatomy, or the Lesbian reddits run by MTTs, or even some of the science reddits.

The only sticking point is are transwomen, women?

That is literally IT.

Sorry but this is serious double think.

I stumbled over the fact that there are lesbian subreddits run by MTT - they are biologically men who still fancy women after transitioning, so they are lesbian. Why not just stay men? Or am I missing something? I do not understand trans* at all.

I can understand it's hard to be a lone voice, but whenever a trans MNetter has posted they've been replied to respectfully and with interest and with people genuinely listening to what they have to say.

I do sometimes feel, reading around, that the expectation (not just here but generally) can be to be centred, agreed with and nurtured rather than responded to as an equal poster on the board. When views are debated, however respectfully, it's seen as harsh and critical.

I will add that the regular MNetters who openly identify as trans and regularly post behave like an other MNetters, but also tend to hold gender critical views.

I do sometimes feel, reading around, that the expectation (not just here but generally) can be to be centred, agreed with and nurtured rather than responded to as an equal poster on the board. When views are debated, however respectfully, it's seen as harsh and critical.

I agree. And there is rarely any thought given to how we as women with our own negative experiences of gender feel about these things. It's rather a one way expectation.

@QuentinSummers

Actually the discussing gender critical and gender identity page on Facebook is good. The mods do a great job of keeping it balanced (I just lurk though)

Could you send me a link to that page please or post it here?

Thank you

www.facebook.com/groups/genderdiscusssion/

I have seen trans MNers get turned on - not recently, but I was on a thread where Ego got a real kicking, which MNHQ did delete when reported. (Is Ego still around, BTW? I am terrible at keeping up with name-changing) And I've seen trans MNers get a bit of a hard time, often TW who display staggering male privilege.

I suspect it can feel like a bit of a pile-on to post something and have a dozen different posters all come back with questions, arguments and assertions, even if each of those is respectful. If the questions are more robust, I can see why trans MNers might choose to stick to other boards.

But I haven't seen any (known) trans MNers claim that FWR is generally transphobic- that seems to be reserved for the posters who venture onto the board, post "wow, so much hatred here!" then never come back to engage...

I do have some sympathy when MTT venture on here and then get bombarded with question after question. Its must be intimidating.

However, this is feminist chat. When MTT say its an echo chamber because it's exclusively women talking about how issues damage women and girls, I lose sympathy. It proves that they are oblivious to why we need a place to talk about ourselves.

However, this is feminist chat. When MTT say its an echo chamber because it's exclusively women talking about how issues damage women and girls, I lose sympathy. It proves that they are oblivious to why we need a place to talk about ourselves

Definitely this! It's never easy being a lone voice, that's true. I get that. But feminism 101 is "it is necessary to centre women's voices and women's concerns and fight the ingrained urge to be nice".

Is there a large online trans community anywhere agonising over how they can better understand women's concerns and stop the relentless over-reach of the complete abolition of any sex based protections for women, while at the same time negotiating for their needs to be addressed? Doubt it. Would be delighted to be proved wrong, and those people would be my allies. We're told to centre trans people: will you centre us?

However, this is feminist chat. When MTT say its an echo chamber because it's exclusively women talking about how issues damage women and girls, I lose sympathy. It proves that they are oblivious to why we need a place to talk about ourselves

I also completely agree with this.

However, this is feminist chat. When MTT say its an echo chamber because it's exclusively women talking about how issues damage women and girls, I lose sympathy. It proves that they are oblivious to why we need a place to talk about ourselves

I also completely agree with this.

When MTT say its an echo chamber because it's exclusively women talking about how issues damage women and girls, I lose sympathy. It proves that they are oblivious to why we need a place to talk about ourselves

Do you think it's an echo chamber when women are talking about trans people, what they think trans people are like, what trans people experience and how trans people behave?

We aren't talking about trans people and what they think. We are talking about how their fixation with gender and their influence to change the law is damaging to women and girls. We are centring females. I know that upsets you, but feminism is about females not males.

An echo chamber suggests restrictions and constraint over dissenting views.

Frankly this discussion has been happening here for several years. With a massive amount of dissent, arguments, criticism, etc. There are 12 million unique users per month on mumsnet. That's a lot of people. All with minds, opinions and viewpoints.

Opinion has evolved, precisely because it's not an echo chamber. The debate has gone back and forth for several years.

A consensus has been reached because people are allowed to their air their views and argue.

The fact that opinion has indeed changed, is because of the logic, rationality and common sense that characterises a gender critical argument.

Many people on FWR have similar views on trans people and trans issues and discuss them, share experiences, statistics, internet links and valid concerns on a sub forum with other people who share their views.

It's a great place and a reasonably safe place to do that - and it is one of the places on the internet where that sort of discussion can happen.

I know that upsets you, but feminism is about females not males

It doesn't upset me in the slightest.

We aren't talking about trans people and what they think

I would politely but strongly disagree with that statement.

The only reason we have to talk about trans people and what they think is to dismantle the argument. Do you really think feminists would want to talk about this otherwise?

The goalposts constantly change and everyone is back footed, so you have to drill down into the argument in order to refute it.

Because no isn't enough.

Yes, I just love the way that MtTs think they have every right to set the agenda and often dominate the conversation.

As a feminist and someone who has walked this earth with a vagina, womb, ovaries and tits for near 50 years I'd rather be talking about the glass ceiling that I face at work, women in poverty, abortion rights, etc. - in other words advancing women's status. Instead, I'm stuck arguing for what few rights women currently have against a bunch of people who have no idea about what it is like to be born and raised female in a female body and brutally shaped by gendered expectations and who seem to have the same agenda as MRAs.

The only reason we have to talk about trans people and what they think is to dismantle the argument

Indeed. And FWR provides a safe space to talk with people with similar views on trans people to talk about trans people so the arguments can be dismantled.

I haven't read any threads about that Orlantina. The ones here are about the effects on women of trans activism, unpacking the messages being put out by trans activism - which I'm assuming are put out to be read and considered? - and trying to make sense of the arguments, claims, forcible labelling of others with no right of rebuttal, the reconfiguration of language and scientific fact... these all seem to me not only reasonable but crucial to think critically about?

The politics of this massively affect women. I'm not prepared to accept the I can't talk about this because I'm not trans so can't understand and can have no valid viewpoint. Or that I may not talk about this without a context of equal trans people present to ensure I am objectively policed in whatever I'm supposed to be being policed about. This is where women start getting so tangled up in nice and fair and socially just that they're collaborating in their own oppression.

This also seems again about special pleading. trans activism isn't worrying in the slightest about women's experiences, feelings, studying how they behave to better understand. Why do women owe this one sided care and consideration unreciprocated? There are no web pages or screen shots I have ever seen by womens groups advocating punching, bloodying, raping, 'strategically litigating', or making death threats about any group of any kind. why do you feel women should be more respectful of the people pushing this abuse? Particaulrly as they are the ones leading the legislation!

This is where women start getting so tangled up in nice and fair and socially just that they're collaborating in their own oppression.

This.