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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Some sort of campaign being organised against MN

229 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/10/2017 12:26

There are rumblings on Twitter about MN transphobia. Mermaids mention something about a press release.

If anything comes of this I hope MNHQ will ignore.

OP posts:
Bucketsandspoons · 02/10/2017 17:25

I would have thought that the pro-trans lobby would have had a problem with that as much as we do.

Paris Lees has spoken out on exactly this and sees it as an issue.

SerendipityFelix · 02/10/2017 17:35

That's good news, Bucket, do you have a link?

Bucketsandspoons · 02/10/2017 17:38

I don't off the top of my head Felix I seem to remember she spoke about it on a radio interview and was clear in concerns about bandwaggoners getting involved alongside people with actual dysphoria, and the negative effect it would have. No time now but will hunt about this evening and see if I can find it.

Albadross · 02/10/2017 19:03

Oh good - I've made it on to the block list (that they say is only for those who harass or abuse) because I questioned the harassment TRAs employed at Speaker's Corner.

They corrected my 'TRAs' to 'trans' just for added cleverness Hmm

orlantina · 03/10/2017 21:30

It is an echo chamber - because you rarely hear the views or experiences of trans people on here. So in that sense, it's a discussion about trans issues without hearing different perspectives.

And it's very hard for trans people to post on here.

BigDeskBob · 03/10/2017 21:35

But this is a feminist sub. Wouldn't of be odd for women not to be the dominant, if not exclusive voice here?

OlennasWimple · 03/10/2017 22:32

Paris Lees has spoken out on exactly this and sees it as an issue

I'd be interested in a link too - not disputing that it has happened, but it would seem slightly at odds with previous articles. India Willoughby has spoken about it, IIRC, in the past

Is FWR an echo chamber? To some degree, I guess it is. Though posters who voice an opinion that goes against the grain here generally get a fair hearing, provided that they are courteous and are prepared to engage in a decent level of debate. (For eg, I am in a minority in not supporting abortion on demand to term, but I still feel able to post here on that issue and others)

Ereshkigal · 03/10/2017 22:42

Not only is it a feminist sub, it's on a forum overwhelmingly used by women, and mothers at that. Yes there are exceptions - some male posters, some trans of both sexes. But discourse on this largely female site is hardly going to centre them, is it?

ErrolTheDragon · 03/10/2017 22:42

And it's very hard for trans people to post on here.

There are a few trans people who are happy to post on here because they too get blocked or harrassed on TRA sites because they don't agree with that dogma.

Ereshkigal · 03/10/2017 22:44

India Willoughby did say this, and got a lot of flak from the self id transgender lobby for it, and had to apologise if I remember correctly.

SophoclesTheFox · 04/10/2017 07:36

I'd welcome more trans voices on here, particularly trans men, who we almost never hear from. I want to debate the issues, and it would be great to do that here, where the starting point is that women's rights are important and women's voices need to be heard (so many parts of the internet where that doesn't happen, sadly). I'd love respectful debate where we could hash out the issues. There are several trans posters who do that, and it's always educational for me.

Sadly, the vast majority of trans supporters (most of them, as far as I know, not trans), plop onto threads, call us bigots, tell us to get an education and flounce. Or worse still, just post on other parts of the forum, or other forums that we're vile bigots and to steer well clear, so it all happens at one remove.

Datun · 04/10/2017 07:38

From what I remember both Paris Lees and India Willoughby have tried to distance themselves from the more extreme trans-activists/AGP men. India, certainly, received a backlash and then retracted a few days later.

The numbers of trans people swelled massively with the advent of TRAs and inclusion of cross dressing men. Which must have looked like a positive aspect, until, of course, they got completely out of hand and started to make the movement look bad. Hence the subsequent attempt at a distance.

Unfortunately, Paris Lees and Indian Willoughby are certainly not friends to women. The idea that they personally feel as though they should represent women in feminism (or otherwise), is ludicrous. They have a male centric view of the world, which comes as a surprise to nobody.

I have no idea whether they believe their viewpoint is a female one, or whether they know full well there is a lot of projection going on, but either way, they seem determined to have it represented as female. And agreed with. By women.

So an attempt to separate the different types of transwomen, although understandable, and interesting in terms of analysis, in terms of credentials as to who should be regarded as what, it's meaningless. Because although some transwomen are more empathetic and understanding, they're still not women.

And people like India and Paris who want to put themselves in the former, come across as overwhelmingly from the latter.

SophoclesTheFox · 04/10/2017 07:44

I also have to respectfully disagree that we don't bring other perspectives to the debate. By far the majority of the posts on trans issues here take as their starting point an article or tv programme that most often presents an uncritically trans affirmative view of the world, and then posters here look at that through a feminist lens and analyse where we agree, or disagree, or think it falls short, or that it unintentionally has a detrimental effect on women. The dominant narrative in the media of late has been very positive and embracing of trans issues - we are all very aware of, and in fact, mainly supportive of the move to not stigmatise or disadvantage trans people by giving greater visibility to trans people.

We just disagree with the narrative that places trans rights over women's rights, and we talk about that. Anyone who feels that's worthy of debate is welcome here, and honestly, if women discussing things that impact women is felt to be overwhelmingly intolerable to cope with, then it's the person who feels that who needs to do the soul searching, not the women doing the discussing.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 04/10/2017 09:04

There are also respectful disagreements among posters here. For example, early on I remember stating that I had misgivings around transmen and was told effectively that they were women and we must support them. I've since seen a few posters take my original stance (which I stand by). I have also seen disagreements re toilets and whether these should be unisex and open to a common corridor or segregated by sex (I take the latter view). I also disagreed with Datun a while back re figures showing whether or not those taking PB's usually go on to full blown hormones, etc. There have been other disagreements that don't involve me. I've appreciated this as a safe space where disagreements amongst a minority group are respected and tolerated. I'd have left if we were all expected to march in lockstep and I also think that such disagreements are healthy in minority groups where because members feel threatened from the outside they often don't scrutinise their own position and/or 'other' those who dare to disagree about majority opinion within the group.

paintingmary · 04/10/2017 09:20

I think if you are so sure if your ideology, that you are willing to sterilise your child for it, then NOTHING anyone else can say will touch your conviction.

It is enormously sad for the children, and soon they will be viewed as victims of medical/social abuse.

Datun · 04/10/2017 09:29

The most basic part of the consensus, if there is one, is that transwomen are not women. Firstly, that's enough to get you consigned to a position where any further opinion is worthless.

And secondly, it's about the implication of what that means. And where compromise can, or cannot be had. Personally, if I disagree with another's viewpoint over that compromise, I will put my argument forward. If we continue to disagree, that's fine. As I've said before, you can't make someone think the way you do.

It's also so intertwined with feminism. If you have a feminist outlook, this movement just comes across as more of the same oppression. If you don't have a feminist lens, it can appear as an isolated issue which should be judged on its specific aspects. And even then, a lot of people reach the same conclusions, it just takes a little longer.

BeyondDrinksAndKnowsThings · 04/10/2017 15:32

Oh how adorable - I’ve been quoted as proof that the survey was hijacked ♥️♥️

Funny how dad didn’t quote the posts stating my sexuality, isn’t it Hmm

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/10/2017 16:11

Sion Faye has apparently been approached by TV stations wanting to film with them and Julia Long - they are urging other TRAs to also refuse to appear and suggests that the show should use non-gender critical feminists (my words)

Good news that it sounds like Julia Long may be appearing on something, but the TRA refusal to debate does not look good for them.

OP posts:
Elendon · 04/10/2017 16:21

I'm really not interested in what Paris Lees has to say.

Sex is different from gender

Sexuality is different from trans

I did the survey because I posted on the 'I'm now a man' thread. I fully intend to put myself, self identifying, as male in the next census. (Can't really see what difference it would make). I do not identify as trans though.

theendisnotnigh · 04/10/2017 16:29

I suspect that the Trans organisations will always avoid debate where they can. They are financially well resourced and rely on 'set piece' presentations which are framed within warnings of "dissent equals transphobia". So they gaslight away and as it sounds so 'reasonable' everyone accepts it. It's only when the questions start 'define a woman?' 'how are puberty blockers safe for 12 year olds?' 'how can the rights of women to have safe spaces', 'how do you stop rapists and murderers of women getting into women's prisons? ' etc that their basic principles begin to fall apart. And that is why they are so desperate not to debate and go to such extreme lengths of verbal hatred and no platforming.

Bucketsandspoons · 04/10/2017 17:13

it's about the implication of what that means. And where compromise can, or cannot be had.

Yes. Interestingly when a recent trans MN posted on a thread saying they were seeking compromise between 'moderates' they were invited to discuss and explore what compromises they would like to see.

They chose not to respond or even to explain what in their view 'compromise' might look like.

MadamMinacious · 04/10/2017 17:26

@SophoclesTheFox

I completely agree with this:

I'd welcome more trans voices on here, particularly trans men, who we almost never hear from. I want to debate the issues, and it would be great to do that here, where the starting point is that women's rights are important and women's voices need to be heard (so many parts of the internet where that doesn't happen, sadly). I'd love respectful debate where we could hash out the issues. There are several trans posters who do that, and it's always educational for me.

and your subsequent post. I'd welcome seeing other perspectives on here it is always interesting and informative to hear from people actually living through these issues and I find those posts very helpful. I don't want to see just one opinion repeated and I very much welcome debate on this issue. I stress that it is debate though not dropping an insult and running. Engaging with the issues and talking them through even when we don't agree is how we come to understand problems more fully. Inevitably this board is
'feminist-centric' and focuses on women, the clue is in the name but I've found it very open to discussion. I wish that some of these people tweeting from afar would respectfully engage with this board and perhaps it would benefit all of us.

orlantina · 04/10/2017 19:37

Engaging with the issues and talking them through even when we don't agree is how we come to understand problems more fully

I am not sure if that's possible TBH. I am trans and I find posting on trans threads on MN very hard. Some of the comments and attitudes from some people who post really put me off engaging. I do think that more different voices would be good to hear different perspectives but it's so hard posting on certain threads. I know there are some forums where there are a wider range of views and voices but I do honestly think that FWR is never going to be a place to hear a wider range.

It's a good place for highlighting issues and raising concerns about what's happening.

morningrunner · 04/10/2017 20:01

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QuentinSummers · 04/10/2017 20:08

I've sought out intersectional groups in the past to get a wider range of views and I found it really hard. Because they just didn't put women first (this isn't about trans). In fact almost anything a woman did was "problematic" because she was too white, too young, too "cishet", too old etc etc. Everything was about privilege. Trying to wade through it made my head hurt.

I'm quite a simple soul, for me feminism is about improving the lot of women. That includes issues trans women face by virtue of being read as female, but not specific issues only faced by trans women.

I'm not sure how we can discuss trans issues when self identification is the main thing on the table. I can't see a scenario where self-ID isn't harmful to women.

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