Some sort of campaign being organised against MN

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

There are rumblings on Twitter about MN transphobia. Mermaids mention something about a press release.

If anything comes of this I hope MNHQ will ignore.

They don't think academic debates on this should be allowed. Or any other kind of debate.

"If an argument is good it should be able to stand up in the face of any shouting down."

Tell that to Hilary Clinton.

They don't think academic debates on this should be allowed

Which is bizarre. If TRAs believe what they are saying they should welcome rigourous peer reviewed science that proves their case.

If I remember the speakers corner incident right, the rhetoric was a mix of debate is non acceptance which equals erasure and literal violence etc, or that attempts at debate didn't stop people arguing and questioning so had been abandoned.

I struggle to believe politicians seriously intend to validate a situation on which there is a gag order.

"We need to find a way to accommodate the genuinely trans"

Genuine questions. Why? Why is it up to women to solve a man's problem, why do we have to accommodate them?

Why do we have to work to protect this sub set of men, why not all vulnerable men? What does that have to do with feminism?

I took that 'we' to mean society at large, not women in general or feminists in particular -correct me if I'm wrong but I though larry is a man?

Ah, makes more sense. I still don't understand why MTT need accommodating more than any other vulnerable group.

Women who are married to mtt have been through a hell of a lot, there voices should be heard even if it makes other people uncomfortable.

This has nothing to do with homophobia as the mtt mostly comes out as a lesbian. There are women on this forum going through this right now, let them speak.

The homphobia I see are the young lesbians coming out as boys. We will not have any lesbians as they will all be re packaged or bullied out of existence. That's homophobia right there.

Imagine huge swarthes of white people blacking up and black language being erased cos black people can be white too y'know.

But it's okay because a small study shows that the white peoples brains have traits similar to black people brains. Of course a reasonable person would point out that if it's happening on both brains then it's a trait that happens in white and black people. Trans racialist will seize this and say it is a proof that white people have black brains.

Absolutely, a woman angry and struggling with a husband MTT (and the threads I've seen the wife has rarely been treated by their transitioning partner with respect, care or consideration so is understandably angry and hurt, is entitled to share their reality and feelings even if they're uncomfortable to a nice narrative.

The thing is while I've seen occasional posts on trans related threads that should be and then were deleted as over the line, that line is adhering to strict standards on MN. I have never anywhere on MN seen posts even suggesting violence or organised silencing via turning up to events to try to prevent debate, or that trans people are not entitled to the full protection and rights guaranteed by law. What happens here is debate, discussion, sharing of editorials, articles and research, and writing to MPs to share other perspectives.

If that's'dangerous' to someone it's because they find free speed and women a dangerous combination. It cannot be illegal to offend someone. Disagreement and debate is not hate speech.

That twitter link been removed now then?

Same on twitter, the violent language from men, mtt's is appalling. They use terf as a rally to incite violence, just like witch, bitch and alllllllll the other terms used to put women down.

They block dissenting voices, they ban speakers, since when was that good, or healthy?

I really hope some people on the trans side do turn up and address these basic questions. Women have the right to be concerned when it is them and their daughters under pressure to give up their spaces, their sporting success, their scholarships, their awards. Let's be honest, women and girl's achievements are pretty thin on the ground anyway.

As for being inclusive, why? When one sex treats another so appallingly why must they be included?

Students in Cambridge will not listen to a black feminist as they find her ideas challenging? How inclusive is that?

They won't turn up dame.
Refusing to engage with transphobes is a key part of intersectional feminism. I have a friend who is intersectional. She wouldnt watch the transgender kids: who knows best prog. There are feminists she won't read because they are problematic. Basically no engagement with anything that might challenge her.
Mind you I wouldn't go and read the EDL website (for example) so I suppose that's just human nature.

have bullied anyone who disagreed with the party line that genitals=gender

Where did you read this? This certainly wouldn't be a feminist view.

morning

Thats because most of that doesn't happen...note most not all. On every thread there are out of order posters.

And the ID cards thing is definitely rubbish...i was on that thread and thats not what was being said

But I appreciate that bananas was not saying all threads and there have definitely been bigoted comments. And to be fair are not usually made by names i recognise

I think the problem is that there isn't an agreed definition of terms.

have bullied anyone who disagreed with the party line that genitals=gender

Is gender the clothes we wear, or how we feel on the inside or is it another word for sex?

the party line that genitals=gender and transpeople are all mentally ill and likely sexual predators

Sorry, I must have missed that memo. Facetiousness aside, I find implying that all gender critical posters on MN believe that transpeople are likely sexual predators is hugely offensive, can we please address that.

'Genitals=gender' - NOPE, it's just that sex=sex, and gender is a social construct designed to facilitate the oppression of one sex by the other, i.e. what feminism seeks to liberate is from.

'transpeople are mentally ill' - well, if someone fits a diagnostic criteria for any kind of dysphoria then that is by definition a mental illness, however I massively object to the intimation that this is somehow a pejorative statement. Can we have less of the insidious mental health stigma please, to paraphrase an excellent campaign - some people have mental health issues, get over it . In general, the gender critical posters I've seen are the opposite of dismissive of trans-identifying people because they may have dysphoria, more hugely concerned that they are not able to access appropriate, unbiased help and support that doesn't push them down an irreversible path towards permanent disfigurement of their healthy body, infertility, a lifetime of dependency on the pharmaceutical industry and goodness knows what long term risks of off-label use of chemotherapeutic drugs.

'transpeople are all.....likely sexual predators' - this is the strawiest straw man of them all, and a deliberate misunderstanding of the genuine concerns many women have about safeguarding sex-segregated spaces. No one is saying that all people who fit under the trans umbrella are likely sexual predators. However, proposed legislation (and that already passed in other countries) will allow, and has allowed, sexual predators to access vulnerable women in what should be protected sex-segregate spaces. Those sexual predators have hijacked a trans identity to do so. I would have thought that the pro-trans lobby would have had a problem with that as much as we do.

Anyway, where is this invasion? I was looking forward to some genuine debate between us.

The tweets have been deleted I think? Wonder why. Is it a good idea to name change? I was screengrabbed on one of them.

He doesn't seem to have deleted the individual tweets, just the one that points to them all as a "thread". I can still see the one with your name on Lemon. If you look on his timeline you can see them.

The lead tweet in the thread has been deleted - the others are from here:

twitter.com/DadTrans/status/914157000401014784

However, a minority of trans threads have become abusive, I've definitely seen bigoted comments, and a handful of past posters have bullied anyone who disagreed with the party line that genitals=gender and transpeople are all mentally ill and likely sexual predators. Posters here have advocated for women to have to carry mandatory ID cards proving their gender before being allowed to go into a public loo. And pro-trans posters have had their IQs, relationships, careers, education levels and suitability as mothers attacked. That's not okay.

I'm really quite puzzled. I've been here a year as of October 1 and I have seen very limited evidence of this. I'm not sure what 'handful of past posters means' - maybe this was before I joined? I've never seen genitals=gender but I have seen quite reasoned arguments being made that what constitutes a woman or a man is a combination of DNA plus genitalia. But this is the same more or less as any biology textbook. It's not hate speech. There have been discussions re whether 'trans' is a mental illness and whether it is linked comorbidly to different mental illnesses and conditions. This is complex territory because of the history of how 'trans' was once recognised as a mental illness and now isn't (put crudely). I'm afraid that I am of the brigade that does think it is a form of dysmorphia or dysphoria just as anorexia is (and we don't deny that is a mental illness). I've never seen claims that transpeople are likely sexual predators. I have seen claims that some are (there are two videos on youtube from the US that name many cases of where trans people have committed crimes of a sexual nature. But no one has said that all trans are. It has been said that sexual predators will use gender laws enacted to allow access to spaces usually segregated by sex and I consider this a legitimate concern. The ID cards one stymies me. It's often raised and the most I have seen is some discussion of whether it would work - the answer being 'no'. But usually, it is TRAs who raise this issue by accusing us of raising it. I've never seen the other issues arise unless they have been part of a heated debate - as in no one has blanketly accused pro trans people of having low IQ, although individual posters might have accused as part of a slanging match (and usually they have been just as if not more insulting). I've seen quite innocuous gender critical comments critiqued, reported and removed by the way and I have also seen the odd rogue nasty anti-trans one removed. I've seen many, many nasty pro-trans posters come on here and make sexist or misogynistic comments and often quite nasty ones (although these are usually removed). I've also seen support being given to transwidows and to the mothers of trans children, whether or not they are going through with treatment. In short, Bananas, I have to disagree with you.