Some sort of campaign being organised against MN

[ItsAllGoingToBeFine]

There are rumblings on Twitter about MN transphobia. Mermaids mention something about a press release.

If anything comes of this I hope MNHQ will ignore.

You'd almost think it was about gender role stereotyping and gendering females from birth to be nice and fair and men to demand their male privilege wouldn't you?

Well orlantina, I think that's a bit of an impasse. What do you think women should do?

MN isn't an echo chamber in the way many parts of the internet are. We don't have block lists. All we can do is report posts if they break talk guidelines, which will be assessed, leading sometimes to deletions and bans - but as we know, that applies to everyone on both sides of any debate.

I've been posting somewhat against a prevailing view on a current issue - correcting some misconceptions and providing more complete information than media reports. No problem doing that at all.

I'm not saying here is an echo chamber, but sometimes it's not such a bad thing. Often many of us don't know many feminists in real life and so online is a great place to congregate and share similar views before going back out into the world alone. That is how someone put it recently on a podcast for Remainers. I agree with a pp about other battles you'd rather be fighting. For me trans and Brexit are similar, there are other important things to be done in feminism and politics but now we have to spend all our time and money fighting for things which I thought were already a done deal.

Indeed. And FWR provides a safe space to talk with people with similar views on trans people to talk about trans people so the arguments can be dismantled

Except it's no longer confined to FWR. Chat has been alive with the issue and also AIBU recently.

Opinion ranged. Disagreeemnt encountered. Arguments put across. And so still more people see the problem. They check, google, do research, and come back to talk.

Then they often agree. What you are calling an echo chamber is consensus reached after strong debate and independent research.

And it's not just on MN. MSM is finally getting it and questioning it.

FWR is not a 'safe space', as was thrashed out in numerous long threads.

It's wrong to think it's anything other than just another topic.

I hope nowhere on MN is a 'safe space' in the sense the term is (mis)used nowadays i.e. No dissenting voices allowed.

Exactly. "Safe spaces" in the modern no platforming etc sense are not required here.

I think of it as my only safe space where I can say what I think without threats of censure, violence or losing my job.

Yes, in that respect it is.

I suspect it can feel like a bit of a pile-on to post something and have a dozen different posters all come back with questions, arguments and assertions, even if each of those is respectful.

Especially when they are so used to being told how "brave" and "stunning" they are. Having someone doing anything other than fawn over them must feel aggressive. Doesn't mean it is though.

To me, it's a classic bait and switch.

Trans women ARE women.

Unless women are trying to talk about them, in which case, we're talking about something we don't know anything about.

Which is it?

The thing that strikes me is that in this debate echo chamber is losing its meaning and is becoming little more than a vague insult.

If there's one thing TRAs are gifted at it's draining the meaning out of words and terms.

Trans women ARE women.

Unless women are trying to talk about them, in which case, we're talking about something we don't know anything about.

Which is it?

This x 1 milllion. I'll have my cake, eat it, and then I'll have yours too.

YY. It's the ability to maintain two completely different views simultaneously I am in awe of.

Case in point, thread on Twitter about white woman identifying as black (not Dolezal, the one in (I think) the UK.

People were fairly unanimously agreeing that it was, at best, ridiculous. Then someone brought transfolk into it and were immediately argued down, as being transgender is totally logical and sensible and scientific, and transrace isn't, and trying to conflate the two is a straw man argument etc.

As far as I can see they are identical arguements as sex/skin colour = biological and race/gender = social construct. The trans people on the thread just couldn't /wouldn't see this though.

For me trans and Brexit are similar, there are other important things to be done in feminism and politics but now we have to spend all our time and money fighting for things which I thought were already a done deal.

This is brilliant. Exactly how I feel too.

You can see it in action in intersectional groups where any actual feminism discussion is turned into the validity of any person to hold a view. So it ends up effectively being a debate about whether women have a voice or not

It seems that in so many apparently unrelated areas there's a conflict going on between knowledge (experts) and faith (gut feeling). This change has come about so quickly, within the past 10 years. That's about the same time period over which social media seemed to take over everything.

Yeah. The internet has broken the world

Its so not what it was invented for.

Maybe critical thinking ought to be taught in schools.

Maybe critical thinking ought to be taught in schools

Hell, yes! For so many reasons.

*Trans women ARE women.

Unless women are trying to talk about them, in which case, we're talking about something we don't know anything about.*

Yep.

See also transwomen must be referred to as women when commiting crimes.

But must be referred to as transwomen when crimes are commited against them (even if the "crime" is merely disagreeing with them).

Just in case the Nadine Dorries comment "As I looked over my shoulder, Reginald D Hunter was talking to my daughter.#wheresmyshotgunman" isn't clear, he looks like this.

She represents the very worst of them.

Aargh, wrong thread!

What thread is that on?