My sexist (misogynist?) Father makes me so angry

[YesAnastasia]

He has just said the following sentence in a conversation so full of horrifically misogynistic things that I won't be able to bring myself to speak to him for a long time.

'You know that some women drive men to kill, actually murder, with their behaviour...'

The context was how men don't like women who go out with their 'skirts around their arses' drinking and 'cavorting'

How can I have been raised by this man?

Love your username - fellow Tori Amos fan!

Well that's a pretty disgusting view. Has he said similar in the past? Its extra disturbing when its someone who is related to you. I'm never sure whether to put energy and time into challenge someone like that or to just avoid them like the plague in future. My brother has said similar and I have argued bitterly with him about it. I know that it made not one jot of difference to what he thinks because I'm just a stroppy bitch woman so what would he listen to me for anyway

Wow!
I'd be so angry to hear anyone say something like this let alone my father. I guess there's is not much you can do other than avoid.
Scary that people could actually think like that. Do you think he was being serious or just saying it to goad you?

Has he any views as to male behaviour that might drive women to murder them?

Did you ask him how often a woman in a short skirt made him feel homicidal?

How fucking horrid.

How can I have been raised by this man?

I often have this sort of thought about my parents. My mother in particular, can push me to be the best person I can be, yet when I recounted a story about how a man said that his wife's law degree was a waste of money as she is a SAHM now, she agreed with him! I was livid, and she couldn't see that what she said was wrong on so many levels. Especially as my sister and I were pushed (in a good way) to attend university and get a good education. Pot, meet kettle...

He was terrible with my mother. He was never physically abusive - and is weirdly proud of this - but his emotional abuse and control issues made my mother a nervous wreck (although of course I didn't realise this until recently) and they divorced after 25 years of marriage. She wasn't allowed to laugh at other men's jokes etc.

He called around a few hours after I had to abuptly end our phone conversation. He back-tracked & said he hadn't meant that and of course there is never a justified reason to murder a woman... I have to admit I felt relieved even though I know exactly what he said & what he meant yet I said 'ok, good' & we had a hug. WTF! Gas lighted by my own father (willingly?)

Ah, Lottapianos, fellow EWF - cute name too.

No, I don't believe he's often homicidal but he's very bitter and scathing about women in general. Perhaps he's why I am so very passionate about gender equality. He thinks I'm a new age hippy who should live on a commune with my children because of my 'liberal views'.

It scares me too zazzles when women express the same views. Very sad.

Oh dear, Anastasia . I'm glad that your mother got away from him. So many women don't. And the gaslighting - unfortunately the same abusive tactics that he used on your mother, he will use on you and your loved ones as well. He sounds very misogynistic . There is a good thread on the relationships board:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/2216998-But-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families

The posters there have lots of advice and support for those who have grown up in dysfunctional families. I have posted there in my time and received insights which helped me along in my journey.

HTH.

He sounds horrendous Anastasia. Don't feel bad - loads of us have been gaslighted by family members. People who use the technique have it down to a fine art and its such a total head fuck that's its hard to argue with it.

My parents come out with the same shit. My mum has said in the past in cases of domestic abuse "i wonder what she did to make him hit her"

And then when a case of a womans murder by a partner or former partner hits the news she thinks it comes out of the blue.

No Mother it comes in the middle of the fucking blue! Ive tried explaining to her that over 99% of the time there is usually abusive behaviour leading up to the murder but she doesnt listen. Too busy listening to Simon Cowell.

I really really believe that if i had ended up with a physically abusive man i would have got the blame for it or been hospitalised or even dead by now such is their denial and victim blaming stance on these issues.

Hi Darkest, you and I have compared notes about our similar parents on here many times!

Your theory about being blamed for being in a violent relationship may well be right - I was in a relationship with a violent man in my mid 20s and after I left him, my mother went through the motions of trying to be 'supportive' of me, but still took time to share some sympathetic thoughts about what could have led him to a point where he would behave like that (being young, leaving home early, that sort of thing. The phrase 'God help him' was used ). When I told my sister that my ex had been violent, her response was 'do you realise you have a serious problem when it comes to picking the wrong men?' She got that from my mother. So yeah, so much for having supportive parents

I was a victim too, not domestic but a violent attack and my father asked what I had done? As did the police. In court, my appearance was actually scrutinised by the prosecution and the defence and at one point my weight was mentioned & everyone looked over at me. This was nearly 20 years ago and it's only now I am able to see this all clearly. I would love a copy of the court notes (transcripts???) but I know it would be heartbreaking. One assault but 18 year old me was victimised over & over.

It's just as prevalent with women, Darkesteyes but it saddens me hugely when I hear it. It's so blinkered. They think the kind of women in abusive relationships are 'different' and somehow complicit therefore cannot be identified with. Distancing themselves from 'those women' is easier than facing up to shit & thinking.

Yep, YOU were picking the wrong men. It's a phase that's said so often glibly but shifting blame ever so slightly. If it's challenged & broken down you can bet she would have been appalled at what she was actually saying.

Hi Lotta and Anastacia Im sorry to hear of your experiences. It saddens me too and angers me if im honest to hear my DM come out with the things she does. Both growing up and now im quite envious of the relationship other women i know have with their mothers.

You know, I read this with horror and then a distant memory popped into my head.

It was of my mother saying thirty years ago that my dad's cousin, who had escaped a violent marriage, had "driven" the guy to it with her behaviour.

At the time, I remember my very young self thinking how wrong she was for saying this.

I think my mum would be ashamed if I reminded her of this now. It does make me wonder if there is a generational aspect to these attitudes.

I know about the pocket of misogyny that exists in young men at the moment - particularly online -and feminism still has a long way to go but if some aspects of it are generational (like racism can be too) then there's hope that things will be better for our children's children.

We need to actively teach them a different way to be. Thankfully I have boys so I feel my responsibility strongly to raise feminists and and I'm enjoying every minute. What I also hope is that when my children disagree with how I see things in the future, they will feel free to speak out, be listened to & I will have the intelligence to see their perspective because I know they will have insight from their own generation. That certainly doesn't happen with my parents and it has suffocated me for years.

'Thankfully I have boys so I feel my responsibility strongly to raise feminists and and I'm enjoying every minute. What I also hope is that when my children disagree with how I see things in the future, they will feel free to speak out, be listened to & I will have the intelligence to see their perspective because I know they will have insight from their own generation'

Good for you. You sound like a bloody great parent, wish there were many more like you

Oh Lottapianos, that's the best compliment I've ever had. Thank you.

And I don't say it often, believe me! I work with young children and their parents and I just despair most of the time. Your commitment to helping your children find their own voice and trust their own instincts is a rare thing, and something for you to be hugely proud of

Yep Anastasia, it does sound marvelous. I too know about the suffocation that a child's voice and personality can go through at the hands of well meaning, but incredibly dysfunctional parenting. Good for you for wanting to change that dynamic with your own children.

Thank you! But I'm sure many if us are doing the same thing instinctively, I've just put it into words.

He started on the subject of rape and drinking yesterday in the car (I HAD to listen, no escape). He said that when women are out & get 'that' drunk it can lead to rape. Honestly. I said "only if there is a rapist there. Just like murder can happen when 'women' have been drinking if there's a murderer there, ready to murder. I think what you mean is that if there is a criminal there, people aren't as quick in their reflexes or can be more trusting when they're pissed." He said " No, rape is different. Men don't know where they stand when a woman is leading them on all night, pissed"

I was so angry. But I'm frightened that he doesn't recognise that rape is rape when a woman is unable to consent to sexual activity despite being flirty earlier. I know my brother has the same opinion - how many other men? Does this mean that it's true, these men are potential rapists? And they're raising sons!

That's the scary thing - rapists are 'normal' men, not monsters. Is rape a favourite topic of his Anastasia? I do find it unsettling that you've had two conversations with him in the past week where he's been hammering home his rotten views on this particular topic. Do you think he gets some kind of pleasure from 'winding you up' about this?

I'm becoming more vocal about equality and gender issue because I'm explaining things to my boys more often now they're old enough to ask questions & make statements that need to be addressed (eg. men are doctors, women are nurses...) and there has been a break up in the family & it means some issues have come to light. BUT yes, he is sexist ALL OF THE TIME.

I have been getting some resistance from my husband recently too. He says I'm going to be turning them 'the other way' - he said he means into making them think women are superior & he's worried about that. I said I was just addressing the bias as that is already there. He doesn't agree. He does not want me to 'big up' women at all. Then when I say he's sexist, he turns it around & says I am sexist against men. I hate him at the moment. I honestly don't know a man who is not sexist. I know they exist but why aren't they in my life!!!??

Grrrrrrr

Yes - he doesn't need to worry as 90% of the messages they get will be the other way...

How do I get him to understand? He cuts me off everytime I'm saying something about women. He didn't like that I was saying that only women can have babies yesterday, I mean come on!!! If my sons think think that women are awesome for this then I'll be happy. He said that some children only have dads. I said yes but they didn't or couldn't give birth, have a baby themselves. He said 'well, something could happen' ffs! He felt the need to counteract the information that only women can have babies with, yes but sometimes they die (or leave)! He makes me angrier than my father because I chose him, he isn't supposed to be this way, what have I done?

Or am I overreacting? I hope so but I feel not.

How do I get him to understand?

You can't, or he won't/will refuse to understand, is the simple answer. People are uniquely placed of all organisms to refuse to see truth and reality, and believe lies, even when the truth would serve them better, and is staring them in the face.

He sounds really, really combative in a conversation. And it could be highly likely that he knows this particular topic irks you, and he discusses it regardless, because he knows it upsets you. Stick to non-emotive, bland topics like the weather, or "Oh my god, something horrid happened in the news!' sort of subjects, not things where he will arc up and be an arse.

People who are emotionally abusive very often have personality disorders that make them very, very, very difficult to deal with. The best you might be able to do is set a boundary with him that says "This is a topic I will not discuss", which is what I do with my difficult mother. She then drops the topic and we move onto something else. But I always know that my mother is an arse.

HTH

Yes - does your DH say this in front of your children?