Radfem 2013 and the MRAs

[MooncupGoddess]

As many of you will remember, the Radfem 2012 conference in London was explicitly open only to born women and consequently attracted lots of condemnation and anger from people who saw this as transphobic. It was kicked out of its original venue at Conway Hall and went underground (very successfully in the end).

This year Radfem 2013 has not explicitly banned transwomen... but instead it's come under attack from Men's Rights Activists, who have staged a demo at the planned venue, the London Irish Centre, while making lots of unpleasant and ridiculous claims about how radical feminists want to murder small boys and the like. As a result the venue is threatening to cancel the booking.

www.mralondon.org/

bugbrennan.com/2013/04/20/statement-from-rad-fem-2013/

I have mixed feelings about the whole trans issue but have no hesitation in declaring the MRAs utter misogynist knobbers and am disappointed the London Irish Centre has seemingly caved into them.

sausage your friend sounds very hateful and aggressive. Was he or she threatening violence against this woman?

'FloraFox Fri 03-May-13 17:15:59

sausage your friend sounds very hateful and aggressive. Was he or she threatening violence against this woman?'

How do you figure that?

Somebody is obviously in their comfort zone, chucking out 'radical' sound bites in their safe (and false) environment and another person would like that original somebody to put their money where their mouth is.

Who said anything about violence?

I am paraphrasing and toning it down. "So long as that B*tch is speaking then we will try to get to her to challenge her to say what she writes to our faces".

How ironic when in fact the speakers would love the opportunity to speak their views in public and are faced with threats of violence and silencing.

Flora, YOU are the one who has decided that 'challenge' means threats of violence and silencing...

It could mean 'why am I not classed as a woman when that is how I would like to be classed'.

A challenge doesn't mean a physcial challenge... you must have been violently masculinsed to perceive everything as a physical threat.

Or do you think a TG is still a man, and thus wants confrontation?

LL sausage did not say if her friend was a man or a woman.

If you read my post you will see that I asked if that was a threat of violence from the friend. It's undeniable that there have been actual threats of violence against these speakers, though not necessarily from sausage's friend.

You can put whatever tortured construction you want on the words to arrive at your desired conclusion, as you have.

Flora think a lot of people speak from behind the screens of computers on the blog o sphere without fear that they ever need to face the people they berate and belittle. It is why I can challenge people on their beliefs here as face to face I would probably just whisper and walk away.

The person I am talking about was a man but now is a woman with a vagina rather than a penis. I knew her when she was still male and I have no idea why anyone would go through the medical issues along with the personal attacks they face. As to a threat of violence, no it is a case of want to see if the hatred stays when speaking face to face. Although the name calling by one speaker has caused a lot of hatred. Words are one thing but actually violence would repulse my friend.

I would agree with your first paragraph sausage.

However these speakers do want to discuss trans issues in public, not just online, but are being shouted down very aggressively at every turn.

One problem is that some transactivists characterise any discussion of trans issues that does not fully accept their viewpoint as hatred towards trans people individually. There is an important distinction there.

Then these speakers should discuss their issues in public, not hiding away in 'women only' areas.

If there concerns are so valid and can be justified than there should be no problem.

As I said at the very beginning. That men, or transgenders or any other person is barred from entering this event shows how truly false the setting is, and perhaps how some of the more demented points of view are allowed to run unchecked.

I also fail to see how private, little meetings are supposed to help the whole equality thing. Book sales probably soar though in a tidal wave of estrogen, post the 'all men are rapists lecture'. As the first few women buy the book, all of those behind feel they too must purchase 'why I hate men, and so should you' to show solidarity (even if it will sit on their bookshelf unread).

Perhaps RadFem should think long and hard and get some panelists together for a good discussion, to thrash out the blips? Perhaps come together with mens groups, BGLT and other groups striving for equality and fairness in order to bring this ideal about.

Perhaps women don't need your permission to meet and discuss what they want where they want. Free country and all.

Flora,

There you go again. Is it cos I is male, init?

I at no point alluded that my permission, nor anybody else's was required. Just that the practice of single sex discussions doesn't seem a very clever way of going about things.

YOU even said taht these speakers want to speak in public... so let's hire a hall, crank up the PA and get something on.

On you go then. Let me know when and where.

Sorry, I am but one person...

Maybe RadFem can sort something by opening a dialogue with other groups relevant to their arguments.

The first on the debate could be 'who should pay?' I'm sure that would create a good deal of discussion - dutch or gentlemen pay?

If they want to, they will. If they don't want to, they won't. Simple.

Or I'll get them all in a headlock until they start playing nice.

And by that I mean remnd them 'no talk, no resolution'.

They have a imperative to launch open public debate in to such topics.

Flipping off a few sound bytes here and there, that are not in a position to be discussed no matter how credible is just not going to wash.

I just wanted to return to the topic of cultural violent masculinity and how this pre-dates and underpins social class inequality. Because Mini although I agree with much of what you say, it seems when you explain your position the focus on economics downplays the violent establishment of inequality that gives rise to separate classes and the residual fear of that violence which helps to sustain inequality.

A culture of violent masculinity gives men of every class an entitled sense of 'controlling' women, girls, children, as being their right. For example they may in an off-the-cuff manner say something like "I'll get them all in a headlock until they start playing nice".

I believe that class equality (in a communist sense) will contribute to, but can't fully address, the ending of violent masculinity and the feeling of male entitlement to dominate, control and accumulate by force that goes with it.

I referred to headlocking the man rights groups too.

True equality if ever I saw it.

It isn't violent masculinity - genderisation.

What I mean is that I don't agree with the implication that men were a lovely peaceful, woman-respecting bunch, until separate classes appeared (from where?- not simply as the result of free markets) and the powerful ones created a culture of violent masculinity from nothing to make the less powerful males act out violence against their own interests for the benefit of this powerful elite. (I know Mini you've already established there is a dialectic between base & superstructure in the creation of the cultural norms, but I think this still stands).

Course we weren't peaceful, and nor were the women. We had to dominate the area we lived in and conquer, or at least derter violence from, from tribes/villages/states.

Classes/castes were ALWAYS evident. Probably came from alpha males/females from our monkey pack days.

A culture of genderisation has followed but that was probably more a control measure.

Violence against their own interests? That would be a complex one. At what level do you map the two sets of interests?

Individually it is not in your own interest to run at a machine gun nest, or charge a line of shields. Bt as a group it is very much in their interests, as the groups will succeed in their objective.

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

Task - Team - Individual (needs).

And how you have to balance them all.

Regarding this: "Course we weren't peaceful, and nor were the women. We had to dominate the area we lived in and conquer"
I do not agree, but with this:
"or at least deter violence from, from tribes/villages/states."
I do agree. The establishment of a class system is created by a group with the former mentality systematically terrorising a group that were not successful in the latter behaviour.

"Classes/castes were ALWAYS evident."
Evidence please. Social groupings of people have not been large enough to create class/castes for millennia.

"Probably came from alpha males/females from our monkey pack days" There is a variance between the internal hierarchies and behaviours towards different packs depending upon species. For example - our 2 closest ancestors -the bonobos and chimpanzees are very different in this respect.

"Violence against their own interests? That would be a complex one." In this I am specifically referring to Minis argument that wars are for the benefit of elites.

Sorry I should have said 'with the closest common ancestor'

Hi Bubbles, will read your posts and respond once I know what was going on at : 17:09:21 with Loz, what is that jumbled mess about? Is that even allowed?

This image was the scramble he added