How does anyone buy a horse

[Equinot]

Hi dear horsey friends - after many years of yearning and looking, saving up, and working hard on my riding, I recently bought a youngish horse (six months ago). V reputable dealer. I tried him (friend filmed it), then my instructor went to try him; passed a 5 stage vetting (my YO’s trusted vet, who is still his vet). Paid a respectable price - he wasn’t a bargain by any means. All good. Within 4 months, he was lame - rested, advised by experienced qualified people, who thought had just pulled something in the field; all seemed fine. He’s now lame again - bilateral and it’s not looking great - but hopefully will have answers soonish. I don’t want to go into this particular case - I’ll stand by my equine and do the best I can for him, and he’s having tests etc - but my question to you wise people is -

If injections into joints etc can’t be detected on a blood test
If x rays come up clean (his have)
I can see that whilst one could ask for them as part of the vetting, probably unlikely would show a problem like this.
So should I come to buy a horse again in the future - what the heck could I have done differently? I have always been wary of dealers - I don’t think this one did anything dodgy, but possibly a previous owner might have, or maybe the horse just hadn’t done much work and, as we know, bilateral lameness is hard to detect. But even if I bought privately, and could ask the owner, if it can’t be detected, how does one safeguard against this better than I obviously did eg if they lie or misremember.

To note - I am well aware of the perils of horse buying, which is why it took me years to take the plunge. No blame sought, I’m just a bit despondent about how to avoid this again. I was super excited to find him and live my dream.

I know it’s better to buy a known horse,
but can we base this discussion on the assumption that I won’t know the owner and so can only go off vetting and what I am told (or not). Sorry this is a bit rambling but I hope I’ve got my point across.
Thank you! 🐴

Honestly it’s just luck of the draw.
My friend brought her last horse from a super reputable seller, vetting, X-rays, bloods, the works, horse went lame about 6 months later and never came right.

Equally I know someone who bought an unbroken three year old thinking that would be a good route and he never stood up to ridden work at all and is now a very expensive lawn mower.

The best horse I’ve ever had I bought for pennies from a Horses In Training sale, obviously lame behind but a lovely stamp, he’s in his 20s now, on loan, still going, never had a lame day after rehabbing him when I first got him.
Equally I bought a nice filly from the sales (looked like a Stubbs painting she was stunning) who turned out to be an absolute mess with a lot of hugely complicated and painful issues, and wasn’t comfortable in the field and got PTS at 9 (after putting the vets children through private school).

It’s hard to judge is where I’m going. Unbroken has a lot of unknowns, horses with a record may have had quite a hard life. Vetting and X-rays are always a good idea but it’s not a failsafe.
Lots of poor breeding of anything but sports horse types (and even then there are sports horse stallions that throw stock with a lot of problems and people still use them…) can make following soundness issues in families hard too.

I think unfortunately you’ve got very unlucky but it’s very hard to completely protect against

Sounds like you did everything you could, and at that point it's just the gamble you take. I rely a lot on the basics like good conformation. I don't want a random boxy foot or other structural issues that may cause problems down the line.

Is it the vets opinion that this is something that would have been obvious prior to you buying him? It's hard to tell if you think they've covered it up or if you've just been unlucky and he's got arthritis at a young age for instance as four months after buying isn't instantly.

Otherwise you want to make sure that their current workload reflects what you want to achieve - taking a horse that has happy hacked for years and expecting it to jump will probably be fine with good prep and muscle building, but taking a horse that is currently jumping well and continuing to jump is more of a cert.

You could always ask for the full vetinary history of the horse. If the seller refuses, walk away

‘My friend brought her last horse from a super reputable seller, vetting, X-rays, bloods, the works, horse went lame about 6 months later and never came right.’
@Lastqueenofscotland2 may I ask what happened to your friend’s horse? I am a bit worried about my boy.

Thank you. He has good conformation but I need to learn a lot more about this, also about wear and tear on the feet. The vet I have now did his vetting. He wasn’t lame then.
Good point about workload, which I shall remember for future. However, we haven’t done a lot with him yet. Not more than he should have coped with ie light hacking, light schoolwork. No jumps or anything.

Sorry to hear this OP. I'm with others that it doesn't sound like you did anything wrong, this sadly is just how it goes with horses - you have to remember they have giant torsos on spindly little legs, bred to graze slowly all day then briefly sprint from dangers, we've selectively enhanced those traits over thousands of years to increase the heart/lung capacity and the length of the legs to carry a person or other heavy weight long distances but the net result is that the bones and muscles and cartilage in the legs doesn't always match the stress they're put under over time.

What can you do differently, I mean you did everything right and it probably wasn't foreseeable, but I do try and pay attention to certain conformation points in any horse I'm spending significant money on, sellers will try and tell you that unless you're a show home things like pigeon toes/legs turned in, over at the knee, worst of all unbalanced or twisted feet aren't an issue but these can contribute to extra joint stress and lead to long term unsoundness even if 0 visible on x rays at point of purchase - that being said of course some of the soundest horses I've ever known have terrible conformation, current Connie boy has awful cow hocks and he stood up to 10 years of hunting and PC eventing, there's a 25 year old TB on the yard still sound who has pretty much everything wrong under the sun, whereas your poor boy probably looks great and is lame. Like I say not an exact science but don't let anyone tell you it's all just aesthetics, old stock man wisdom does have it's place. Breeding too, if I'm paying for something with known breeding I want the genetics to be what I want, I.e. at least one but ideally both mother and father sane, sound horses that have done a job and come from a line known for the same - with racehorses and sports horses it drives me mad that people breed for performance but then 50% or even 100% of the genes are from a horse that was too broken or too spicy to leave it's paddock, and for the amateur market that is even worse...

My approach, and I'm not saying it's the right one, is I've never spent much (any, really) money on a horse for myself - I've spent plenty over the years fixing up problems and on professional help for schooling but I've only ever ended up with rescue cases or gifted horses or unbroken youngsters or very cheap cast offs - not that it softens the emotional blow when they go wrong (which they did, plenty) but at least then I had the cash for the vet bills/retirement field/buy myself another... Obvs you have to have the money and time and experience for this approach to work but TBH I'd personally never pay the prices reputable dealers want these days, don't get me wrong they have to make a living but for me the risks are just way too high. I'd pay a high price for a 'ready made' horse but only one I'd personally known and seen doing the job I need it for, over a long period of time and without falling apart (not to say it then won't go lame stepping off the box onto my yard of course but that's horses).

Good point. Dealers don’t seem to have this - intentionally maybe (even good ones see to be don’t ask, don’t know) - but also just because it hasn’t been documented. Red flag 🚩 there perhaps. So, would one always hope to have the full vet history and is this a reasonable expectation of dealers?

The issue is that it's entirely possible that there's been a problem and the previous owner has "dealt" with it at home and the horse hasn't been near a vet. Then you have someone more dedicated who gets stuff checked out...and then it's in their vet records and counts as pre-existing when you want to insure them.

It’s just luck , someone I know bought a lovely young horse ,lots of money from a local professional eventer , 5 stage vetting etc and he has literally had everything wrong with him since . Hes been with her for about 4/5 years now and I think it was only the first year that she had a horse to ride in the summer months . I actually don’t think there is a single period of longer than 6 months that he’s been sound bless him .

Thank you everyone. Makes me feel a little better, more informed, and also oh gawd,
this could happen again. Xx

I wish people didn't. Hopefully your post will put people off !

Honestly, with horses despite doing all you can these things sometimes just happen and it sounds like you have been very unlucky. The only thing that might possibly shed any light on it if the horse had any medication is if you had the vetting bloods run but they are usually only kept for 6 months. Remember a vetting is only a snapshot of the horse on the day it was done. Asking for a veterinary history can help especially if it's a private sale but some unscrupulous people will be registered with more than one practice. A change in routine, feed, terrain or surface for grazing and exercise, style of shoeing/trimming, tack, style of riding, weight of rider etc can only impact things when a horse changes hands.

Thank you @maxelly I appreciate yours and everyone’s input

You could look into the breeding, some bloodlines are known to have problems. Buying from a breeder rather than through a dealer even if you have to wait longer.
Some breeds are known to be more prone to certain problems but at the end of the day they are animals not machines & illness or injury can strike at any time.

"what the heck could I have done differently? "

Be like JP Mcmanus or John Magnier. Be a billionaire and buy or breed hundreds of them, using the best team of scouts and pedigree experts and vets known to equine kind. Some of them will break down on the gallops before they make it to a racecourse. Some will be soundish, but useless (look up The Green Monkey). Some will niggle along picking up all sorts of different little problems and cost a fortune twice over. Some will be really good but shy at a bird in the hedge, flip over and kill themselves. A lot will be ok-ish and sound-ish for varying lengths of time. A very few will have long, successful careers.

Im suspecting the problem is arthritis as you talk about jabbing etc. In horses that’s a symptom not a cause. I suspect foot balance is the problem. People then would say, I have a super farrier he’s done every 6 weeks it’s fine. I’d then want to say have you had feet X-rayed as it would shock you how the best farrier can’t see what’s going on inside. So you address the feet and that takes a year and whilst doing that slowly the rest of the body will then need time to rehab and adjust, your saddle will then need sorting out etc. There’s a saying in horses that ignorance is bliss. Most horses are lame. Even the ones that have owners that dote on them 24/7 and do everything by the book, horse still lame. The problem is the book isn’t up to date. You mentioned conformation, I’m not being mean but what’s good conformation to avoids, Suspensories, djd, ocd, navicular SYNDROME, etc etc? Did you know that being slightly croup high has huge problems for the horse down the line. I don’t expect you to but your professional should. Many many professionals don’t know so how can you be expected to. Im a pro I deal with the problems. It’s very very very depressing and 99% is avoidable. I speak very uncomfortable truths. I’m not popular. Today I arranged a horse to be pts that on paper had the best life but it’s absolutely crippled now at 7 years old. I’m scared about what I will learn next week about how I’m doing things now that we’ve got completely got wrong through lack of knowledge. I’m 40 years in and desperate to do the best I can for them but you don’t know what you don’t know. Make the most of horses for now because the social licence to ride is on the way out. In years to come we will look at horse riding like we do bull fighting today. The scars are all on the inside though.

I have just been through a long rehab with my horse and what I found was it just took a long time for her to become right. After her offial hospital rehab plan she was still 4/10 lame and at that point I thought the worst. 3 months later she was 1/10 and was signed off to start being ridden in walk straight lines and we built up from there. Admittedly she will never be in hard work now which is no problem for me but I know not ideal for everybody.
Id known my horse for 4 years before id bought her and her history was known for years before that. She had literally never had a day off work ever so seems like id ended up being v unlucky but it seems that time and patience has worked for us after her hospital stay.

Agree with others that it's very much luck of the draw for the most part.

Not sure what kind of start your horse had OP but if I were to buy another one now I'd be looking at one that hasn't done much at all - backed at 3/4 then turned away then lightly worked until 6ish. I wouldn't touch a 6 year old thats evented for 2 seasons or a 5 year old that's jumping the age classes.

I think there's a worrying trend of people doing far too much with young horses just to get a good sale price for them, but until people refuse to be impressed by overproduced young horses it will keep happening and then eventually someone gets shafted with an arthritic 8 year old.

I'd also be very conscious of conformation, particularly in the feet. One of mine was diagnosed with awful navicular at 13 and looking at his foot balance it's not surprising.

Good luck with this! Seems we’ve both been unlucky!

Thank you. I suspect mine may have done a bit too much too soon before he came to me.

If it's feet related, do a barefoot transition and you'll get your horse back. Stop listening to vets and farriers. They do more harm than good.

You don't need x rays. You need to look at how the foot is landing. This will tell you everything you need to know without expensive vet work-ups.

This is very dangerous info you’re giving out. Out of 14 horses (clients and my own home breds and competition horses) only 2 have front and 1 a full set of shoes, the rest are barefoot, so you can’t say I’m not pro barefoot.

the reason your advice is dangerous is because if you genuinely knew what you’re talking about with proper in-depth and holistic knowledge is that you’d know that barefoot is a great option but it is absolutely
not a cure all.
In the horse world there’s a huge amount of ego and old and outdated thoughts/knowledge.

Thinking we know it all is the death of learning. I would be classed as a professional with 35 years genuine experience and learning behind me. But and it’s a cliche the more I learn (and my approach to learning is I want to suck the info out of everyone) is the less I know.

Xray feet, not as a work up but so your farrier/podiatrist isn’t trimming blind. As opposed to foot landing, the vet and farrier world still cannot decide if they want toe or heel landing first so no you can’t tell by looking.

Your post is laughable. The vet and farrier world can't decide? I think you'll find that the horse has already decided and anyone who thinks a horse should land toe first shouldn't be anywhere around horses.

Tell me how’d you’d go about diagnosing NPA in hinds in a sound horse without xray.