I do know it's not black and white @SpanielsGalore and I had stated on Puppy Thread that I did not want the debate there, I wanted it to be a safe haven for all, but one of them wouldn't leave it. She gave her reasons for crating, I gave my reasons for not crating. I thought we could leave it there but clearly not.
You asked, so I will try to explain what I mean by developing adult behaviours early. The person on there who kept disputing everything I said, suggested that a closed crate at night teaches puppies that nighttime is for sleeping and not for play. Whilst I was flippant here yesterday (which I know you don't like) about whether my dogs were playing chess or poker at night, in my experience, her theory has no bearing whatsoever. We remove chews at night, for safety reasons, but we don't remove toys, so the pups still have access to some robust toys. They just don't play at night, ever. They weren't taught that, but when the house is quiet and dark they settle. They move around a lot, which is vital for temperature regulation in a heavy double coated breed, but they do it quietly. They aren't bouncing off the walls at 4am.
Another common justification for crating is the argument that "they wreck your house", and that if a teething puppy has free access you must live in a pigsty. Well, we don't have a show home, admittedly, but nor do we live in squalor, and the dining table remains uneaten. We have had no significant issues with chewing and again - where we have, it was, for example Brie chewing on a kitchen mat in daytime as a young adult. At night they just don't seem to chew stuff, even when they're teething.
So I suppose what I mean by the comment that free range or freedom puppies, call it what you will, develop adult behaviours early on, is just that. The silly puppy behaviour of chewing, ball chasing, zoomies etc just doesn't happen during the night or when pups are left in a room (or two) alone. Some of our dogs were left all day on occasion, when I had hospital appointments in Manchester or Liverpool but they were fine.
We've never ever needed to do "enforced naps" or "decompression" either. Yes, the pups get "Witching Hour" zoomies and have a mad half hour. Brie is boisterous and playful, they are very normal, energetic dogs. But at home, no trouble. They're calm, good food manners and the babies are like little adults. O is like that now. That has been our experience with all of ours, and nothing will ever convince me that routine crating overnight is either necessary or desirable. The first three were my parents dogs when I was teens/early twenties but still at home, so maybe to say 10 is misleading, but DP and I have had 7 dogs here and all of them have been from working lines, not just show. I know the general consensus on mn is that working dogs are a bit mental, but we haven't found that to be true either.
The other myth I want to debunk is that dogs need to be crate trained in case of being hospitalised. Ours were not crate trained but two of the girls had major surgery and were crated at the vets, one of the boys was also crated for an emergency vet stay. They caused no fuss, although there is no way that any of them would ever have tolerated being in a crate at home. Rose had major leg surgery twice and we managed the aftercare at home with no crate. I can't say it was easy but we did it.
So, whilst I know you don't agree with my views about a lot of stuff, that's fine. But I stand by what I've said. I agree with @TheHungryHungryLandsharks up to a point, that if crating is done "correctly" it can be helpful in some circumstances, but 11 hours in a closed crate every night for a high energy herding breed should not be considered acceptable, and in many countries it wouldn't be.
I'm probably likely to get trolled, so I'll either bugger off or change my name. I just can't be arsed with it any more tbh. I apologise for causing disruption on your thread (again). I know I'll never be anything but an outlier with outlier dogs anyway so I don't honestly know why I bother, except that I've learned a lot from being here. Particularly from Landsharks and the now absent brushingboots. And I still think Bill is the cutest puppy that ever lived (with apologies to all the other gorgeous babies here). But my neighbour has just said that our little O is cuteness overload too 😊
Have a good day All.