Another thread has got me worried - pls help me coppertop

[bobbybob]

Coppertop you wrote on the "why the rush thread"...

"I've had some filthy looks from other parents when ds2 has rattled off the names of shapes, colours etc... learn how to let us know if he does/doesn't want something. IMHO being able to do the basics like pointing, nodding, shaking his head"

My ds can rattle off colours and shapes (always correct, right from the start, could do this at about 20 months) but ask him to point and he makes this really weird fist.

He used to point, but since learning to talk if you say "show me the elephant" he just goes and gets another book he remembers an elephant is in, or says, "on the page mummy"

He has also memorised "the Quangle Wangles Hat" in 2 weeks and will recite it as we walk down the street. He doesn't nod or shake his head and can't/won't wave when he says bye bye.

Is this cause for worry? He's 2 in 2 weeks.

babbybob- how is he at following a point?

Wouldn't worry too much about nodding/shaking head etc.

Both of mine have known colours/shapes froom early on. The difference is that ds1 knew colours/shapes (inclusing trapezium) and divided by signs etc before he was 2, but couldn't say or indicate yes or no ((whereas ds2 had a firm no from an early age!)

How's pretend play? Have you seen the CHAT test?

Does he show you things he's interested in?

Sorry, Bobbybob. I didn't mean to worry anyone.

As Jimjams says, what is his pretend play like? Does he make up his own little games?

If you ask him to do something he doesn't want will he say "no"?

If he finds or sees something he's interested in will he try to share it with you? By this I mean will he say "Look, Mummy!" and then look back at you to make sure that you're looking, or bring you the object in a kind of "Let's look at this together, Mummy" kind of way.

We hired a play kitchen from the toy library and he brought everyone "drinks" which he pretended to fill up from the plastic tap.

He doesn't bring things to us, but he will grab hold of us and take us "mummy come" but then when we get there we can't see what is is.

He doesn't say "no" but once when he was ill and in our bed and we said back to your cot he said "stay here".

When we ask him a question "would you like a drink" he repeats "drink please", but then sometimes he pushes it away like "why did you give me that?" The repetition seems automatic, rather than what he wants.

Haven't seen the CHAT test.

Thanks for your replies - I know you are busy.

Bobbybob - Chat test HTH

The CHAT test is the Checklist for Autism in toddlers. Someone else may know the link but it should be easy to find using google. It's a test that children should usually be able to pass by about 18 months old. It looks for things like whether a child can point to something, whether they can follow a point (ie look at what you're pointing at rather than looking at your hand) and whether they have imaginative play. It's not a diagnostic test though. It just lets you know if your child is perhaps more likely to have autism than other children.

The pretend play with they toy kitchen sounds good. Was that your ds's own game or did you show him what to do and then he copied it? Just to give you a comparison, when ds2 is shown a toy kitchen he opens the cupboards and either takes things out or puts them back. There is no pretending to stir food, wash dishes or involve anyone else in the game at all. If I show him how, for example, to put food on a plate then that is all he will do. He won't take it any further and hand it to someone else.

Ds2 does a lot of echoing words but this is pretty much what a lot of children his age do. Ds1 was still echoing at 3.5yrs which was something that made him stand out from other children of his own age. Ds2's language development is disordered in that he can actually say more than he understands. He can still only say single words and doesn't try to join them together.

Have a look at the CHAT test and see if your ds would have passed this 6 months ago. This will give you an idea of whether there might be a problem. Bear in mind though that even if he would have failed this it doesn't mean that he's autistic.

Thanks for the link, BH.

Bobbybob - it's worth bearing in mind that although there are certain things (like pointing) which do ring alarm bells for autism experts, sometimes it can just be an individual oddity of the child.

DS2 is part of a research project, and when he was 18 months they came to do an assessment, one of the things was pointing to pictures which the researcher named. I told them (in glorious innocence) "Oh, he doesn't point - he never does". The researcher went pale, and started scribbling furiously in her book. At the time I knew nothing of the significance of all this, but I did know that ds2 was fine - he is very NT (5.5 now), certainly compared to ds1! He also spectacularly failed another of their tests at the same age.

But it would good if these things were in wider knowledge than they are, so that people are alert for early signed of autism, to enable early intervention.

He would have passed at 18 months on the pointing, but any sort of imaginative play has been quite recent. Apart from the drink thing he mostly just emptied out all the stuff and then put it all back in the places again, interspersed with lots of opening and closing of the oven door. If we put food on a plate and pretended to eat it, he would do the same (grabbing the food off us, wouldn't use another piece of food.)

what does he do when opening and closing the door? ds1 can happily spend hours opening and closing doors and peering round them.

It's good that he would have passed the chat test at 18 months- does that mean he wouldn't pass it now? Sometimes i think children stop pointing so much when their language increases so that it can be used instead of pointing. Ds2 definitely responds better to "it's in front of the video next to the paper" rather than "over there" with a point. As CT said the cha t test is a screening tool- not diagnostic. In ds1's case it would have picked up the potential for his autism much earlier than it was. Instead his red flags as they call them were missed. However always look at the whole child. last week I wnet downstairs to ds1's therapy room after ds2 and ds2's NT frend had been playing there. The 2 NT boys had spent ages lining up cars (something ds1 never did). They're both as far from autistic as possible.

Okay, answer to the question "where is your hat?" to elicit a point.

"mummy, bob's hat in play house next to duvet, bob's hat green hat, big hat, okay"

I think you may have a point about language taking over. He has his 2 year check with the HV today so it will be interesting to see if he points or gives her a full paragraph answer. After all why point when there is an opportunity to say 16 words!

He sounds adorable, bobbybob. I love his hat location sentence (that told you, right?!). My brother used to do that kind of thing - at his two-year-old test the HV asked him to build a bridge with two blocks and one long brick. He looked at her like she was mad and she looked sympathetically at my mum. Then she asked him what goes over bridges. He said 'Articulated lorries and transporters'. My mum looked at her, sympathetically

Oh, I hope ds gets that test, he will ask if she wants a foot bridge, a suspension bridge or a viaduct.

He also does a good line is pithy put downs "look at the boat bob"
"kayak Granny".
Later "look at that kayak bob" (with sarcasm)
"canoe granny" (absolutely deadpan with winning smile)
Later still "is that a kayak or a canoe bob?"
"boat granny" (then kills himself laughing at his joke.)

That bridge bit is sooooo cute!!!

my ds2 was having his 3 yr check....and was asked to point to a toy 'lamb' on the table....the HV had a real strong american accent- and he didn't get her at all....then i realised in shear panic....that i'd never really told him the names of 'baby animals'....just assumed he knew that a 'baby sheep' was a lamb....realising my total failing to my 3 year old i said 'show the lady the BABY SHEEP'....HE THEN PICKED UP THE LAMB!!!!

PMSL at Bob's boat/kayak/canoe joke - he's a riot!

And MrsFROSTgetful, I love your 'shear' panic at baby sheep

i JUST WISH I'D DELIBERATELY MENTIONED 'shearring'!!!!

i AM SMILING NOW AT MY 'UNKNOWN' WIT!!!

Superb typo!

Aspergers and violence? Is it something else now?

Got to school with Sam today, and found a huddle of parents turning their back on me- bit disturbed as one is supposedly my best mate. When I dropped him off and everyone dispersed, BF (???) came up an said Sam had hit one of the kids yesterday, just turned around after lunch and thumped him in the stomacj, and that the parenst were making a formal complaint.

Sam does just hit out, I put that down to frustration at not understanding body language / being able to express himself as wella she would like.

Is it something else? Am I barking up the wrong tree with Aspergers? Psychotic little git was the opinion of one parent.

Lying is the other problem: teachers will watch him hit someone, and he will swear blind it was the other way round. Always. Whn we asked school about the bullying they think HE is bullying other kids, he swears it's him being bullied???? How on earth can we know??

Very confused.

Paeds appt 7 days away- not long.

Also a query: School showed me a book theya re keeping on his behaviour. At first i thought, great, action at last. But now he says he and the other kids see them writing in it, and when I discussed with ex-nursery teacher, she is disgusted at what it might do to his self esteem.

What with DH being on sick leave again, it's just getting too much. Keep bursting into tears in inappropriate places. College mates have been great, but that finishes in six weeks so I have to sort it out now. tutor suggested some free counselling at the college? Tempted, but there's no-one to help me cope if it upsets me.

sorry that was meant to be somewhere else!!!!