RE: What is very immature play????

[Bagpipes]

Hello everyone
Well its been such a long time since I last wrote to you all - BUT I am back down the track with another Pyschologist. If anyone doesn't remember me - I have a 4.5year old boy who is Down Syndrome and has 'difficult behaviours!!. I have now taken him to another Developmental Paed. who then said, I must see another Psychologist (apparently this well specialises in under 6year olds!!) She observed him today, for one hour after questioning me on " bits and pieces like: Can he take his socks off, Can he drink from a glass without a mess, How severe is his behaviour, like is it happening, hourly, daily weekly etc... After a huge big list of questions - She said, she will try and do a cognitve test (IQ) on him next time, to assess his intelliect ability. I said, after seeing him today how did you find him. Her answer was: Well, I think he has very immature play, not interested in toys I put out for him - but much happier to lay on the floor and flick and twitch away at the veritical blinds - He quite like the noise I think. For me today, he was pretty good for the hour - there were no computers, or telephones or gadgets in the room - bar: an electric fan heater - which the pyschologist said: I'll sit in front of it, while we talk. To you kind people out - can anyone give me more information on this immature play?? She said to me: "you told me he can string words in a sentence: But his ability to play should be up there with him - BUT its not!!! Thanks for your comments. (Hope Jimjams,Davro and others all remember me) IN NEW ZEALAND!!!!!

How strange (the psychologist I mean). It is true that language and play can go together - And in typically developing children they should develop at the same rate. However I'm not sure how true that is of a child with Down's syndrome. It sounds to me as if he has many sensory problems (flicking and twitching the blinds) and maybe that interferes with play. My son tends to stim rather than play if left alone..... Certainly my son is delayed in play and language but I don't think bringing on one would help the other necessarily. Does this psychologist have experience of children with developmental delays/disorders?

Thanks Maryz and Jimjams - Yes, apparently this is an American Psychologist - who came out to New Zealand with a wealth of qualifications specializing in: Autism, ASD, Behavioural issues, Developmental delay, Intelliect disabilities, Sleep problems, and of course delays with language, Speech etc... She is supposed to specialize with children under the age of 6years.
I went to my usual Friday early intervention today (physio, SLT, Cognitive work etc...) Where my team of 'specialists' were horrified that she will be testing him. They can't understand why he needs to be test with Cognitive IQ etc... They just kept saying: Yes, he does have very immature play, because he can't play ummmm. But when ever I say DS1 did this today, or did that today - They then turn around and say Gosh, thats marvellous - nothing wrong with his planning!!!
I have come to believe that my early intervention centre don't want any ASD as such label attached ( I have no problem with this at all!!) They thought I would of come away from the new Paed. with a script for RITALIN - they think he is ADHD??? Boy, I only have 18 weeks of early intervention, then I hit the primary schools - one breath I am glad to be out of it all, and in the next breath are things only going to get worst.
Questions: I know people have said Dyspraxia and Autism, or ASD can have similiar 'cross-over' type symptoms ?? Is this true?? Is immature play a typical example of ADHD?? or ASD?? or whatever LOL . I think my DS1 has difficulties playing nicely with children, and when he can't keep up with them (physcially I mean) he'll scream and carry on - When other children ignore him, he lashes out big time!!!!!
Should I be too concerned of the IQ testing?? Like is this type of testing done all special needs children in the UK????

Once again thanks for listening!!

Lynette (in NZ)

Bagpipes, I think you should not let the people at this early intervention centre deflect you from letting this person assess your child. It sounds like they have got a lot of prejudices and default opinions and they are undermining you. Play is typically one of the poorest skills in children with ASD. WHen they are very young it may look like they are playing with toys but, if you look closely, they often are not but are performing repetitive actions or using the toy inappropriately. At 8.5 years my autistic son's play skills are still terrible and we've worked long and hard on many strategies to try to improve them. Its just something he doesn't get. In the last year I've spent more out-of-school time doing activities rather than play with him, e.g. swimming, trampolining etc. I laugh when someone thinks he can go to a party or gathering and there'll be "entertainment" for the kids, magicians and performers are not entertaining to him, or only for the wrong reasons (Jimjams has a story of her son terrorising a clown ). Keep us posted and don't let them grind you down!

Personally I think IQ testing is a BIG waste of time other than for slight interest. IQ tets are designed for normally developing children- if you are developmentally delayed they often don't give an accurate idea of your abilities. Or you may be genius level in some areas, but still have severe learning difficulties etc.

ADHD etc and autism can overlap. My son is ASD/DYSPRAXIC, but they don't have to. My view is that mnay children with developmental delays do have features of ASD, some enough to warrant a dx (I think about 5% of children with ds also have an autism dx). I think it can be useful- PROVIDING it means the childs needs are more likely to be met. I fought for a dx of verbal dyspraxia as otherwise my son's lack of clear speech was put down to "autism" when a different type of input is needed to help verbal dyspraxia.

If you do get the IQ test done remember they're just a guideline and not particularly helpful- you know your son has kearning difficulties you don't need an IQ test to tell you that.

Bagpipes I think you nedd to find out whether an ASD dx will help him. Is that what the assessment is for- to dx or not? If it resulted in him having more appropriate intervention then it would be worth it, although I still think IQ tests are just designed to give psychologists something to do

The trouble with Psychologists' tests and ASD is I've never been sure if its to find out if the child CAN do it or if the child WILL do it, very different things when autism is indicated. My son could do their puzzles etc upside down but why should he? Therefore agree with jimjams (of course!) about IQ tests and that the critical thing is how will the outcome of an assessment and any dx help your child - often immensely. I've never tested my own IQ, too scared of abject failure!

Davros, I think you must be right - when my son was assessed there seemed to be this special interest in the basic fact of eagerness (or otherwise) to do the puzzles - which then seemed to me a bit irrelevant. I see now.

Hi everyone - Thanks for all your kind, generous comments. My problems are at my early intervention centre - I feel, they really don't know if there is anything wrong with him - they basically came up with this 'Dyspraxia' diagnoses end of last year to keep me coming to their centre. I wasn't convinced that the lack of planning was the real issue - more that it was the lack of interest to play with toys, or participate in their type of 'intervention'. Just tonight at teatime - my DD 9.5 years got up from the kitchen table to get some ice-cream, two minutes earlier DS1 had said, drink please, drink please. I turned round and said yes in a minute, I'll just get the dessert ready. While my DD got up and left the kitchen table, DS1 took her glass of juice and tipped just half of it into his glass. - Well is that a planning difficulty??? He planned it so beautifully, that my daughter didn't even notice - there were no tears, yelling or anything - everyone continued eating, and I had a wee giggle to myself - thinking yep, your a clever wee boy when you want to be!! DS1 is (my family think he is) exceptionally bright - when he choses to participate and motivated he certainly is a clever lad.
I have no idea if the IQ is a good, or bad to get done (basically doing what I am told!!!!)- I am in a situation, where I want to help and learn how to help my son with all his behaviour issues. This latest Paed. says, he can't make an assessment without the imput of this psychologist (of course, I did say the last one end of the year - felt DS1 was a wee darling LOL but needed assistance with turn taking etc.. LOL)
I guess I am tired of people (other families with whose children are Down Syndrome) wanting to know why is DS1 -SOoooooooooooo different from all the other Down Syndrome children in my therapy classes. Just on Friday, a new little girl started, she was placid, obliging, an angel - she allowed all the therpists to help her with drawing and glueing etc....While this was going on, I watched my DS1 doing his folding and ironing (they have an ironing board setup with washing) and when anyone approached him, children, therapists etc..-BOY I am sure the whole building shook. You never talk to DS1 when he is doing his thing (this being his favourite past-time!!) One therapist got such a fright and said - is he always like ??? I said, Umm well after being here for 4.5years -surely you must of known the type of reaction you would received from him, she turned quite red LOL I think my intervention centre - are just all focussed on the Down Syndrome thing only!!! If other issues arise, they mearly just place it under the carpet, till I arrive the next week - with my same issues, over and over again. I guess I am so tired of battling and fighting for DS1 rights as a person. His kindergarten can not have him for the next 2 weeks ( he has surgery on his foot on Monday) They have said, they will not have in the kindy unless supported. Boy, I have 8 weeks of plaster ahead of me - NOT GREAT!!! But I'll get thru it (hopefully LOL) Sorry to ramble on again everyone!!

Thanks everyone
Bagpipes

OOPs - forgot to say -
I don't if the outcome of an IQ test will make a huge difference to be honest - I feel we are being pushed into this testing (I won't dear so how much it is costing) DS1 too can do puzzles etc.. he can do so many things - BUT it is always on his terms - always. My husband and I only want to do the best we can for our son - if he has an underlying 'condition', syndrome whatever!! then we need to know. We are tired of our intervention team, not supporting or helping us deal with all his behavioural issues.

Better stop rambling again!!!
Bagpipes

WOuld this page help Bagpipes?

You cuould try searching for things like autism with down's, dyspraxia with down's etc.

Hi Jimjams

Yes, I had the site bookmarked a long time ago LOL I always return to it frequently - But thankyou for being so helpful, I really do appreciate it!!

Bagpipes

Does sound like other potential issues are being swept aside just because he is DS. I know a little boy who is DS and ASD (in my son's class at school) and he certainly sounds a lot less able than your boy. I do think there is probably something else going on other than DS, don't know what exactly, but sounds like he could be somewhere on the autistic spectrum or it could be more specific communication issues, therefore affecting behaviour as maryz says.
Maryz, you made me laugh with your son's views on why he should play a certain way with things, very interesting and clever!