does echolalic speech always indicate a problem?

[thisisyesterday]

cos DS3 uses it a LOT. both in context and at random

this morning for example went a bit like this:

me: say goodbye to daddy
ds3: bye daddy. what a shame daddy having to go to work. lucky mummy you get to play on your computer

his response sounds fab. but is in fact lifted directly from an episode of peppa pig

I notice a lot of similarities between him and DS1 (HFA) and not sure if i ought to be concerned or not. I'm not sure if I am worrying about things unnecessarily jujst because DS1 did/does them, or whether they are genuine indicators of ASD

I don't know, TBH, thisis. But a lot of autistic behaviours are just parts of normal development that are delayed and continued in children with ASD. So echolalia may be a normal developmental stage for NT DC that they grow out of fairly quickly.

How old is DS3 and does he have other quirks? My DS3 is very quirky and obsessional but NT enough not to warrant a DX. I watched him like a hawk and worried loads but he's pretty much fine. He's going to be one of those 'eccentrics' that the paeds were always asking if we had any in our family.

he'll be 3 in June, so still quite young.
I know the only reason i notice things like this is because of DS1's diagnosis, but like you say, a lot of it may be outgrown in time

he gets very, very worried if he hears anyone cry,
he likes to line stuff up and put all the shoes in pairs, and group all the stickle bricks into colours, and collect all the wooden letters into groups of the same letter.
he gets upset if there are cups/plates left on the table and wants them taken to the kitchen, he gets upset if we leave lids off of jars during dinner/tea.
um, he likes his hair to be pulled and twisted and his latest thing is making me tie things tight around him

he also has a lot of very un-ASD kind of behaviours though so I'm not that worried, but i really was not sure whether or not echolalia was something that all kids do or not.
I would say about 60-70% of DS3's speech is echolalic

he's lovely though, and very funny. i guess only time will tell

what's his language like when it's not echolalic? can he speak in sentences that he spontaneously generates - mummy get drink, I got red car, that sort of basic sentence? I would be concerned by this much echolalia at coming up to age 3 tbh, it may not inevitably result in a ASD diagnosis, but IMO isn't typical language development by this age. As I understand it, immediate echolalia is common and more normal for an earlier stage of language development.

At a similar age, my DS's language was v full of scripted telly talk, with spontaneous language only at about one word level, so the echolalia was blindingly obvious. He was DX'd with severe language delay at 3, further DX'd at 4.3 with moderate language delay with subtle social communication difficulties, then at 5.5 improved massively with language, to test within normal range and be discharged from SALT. TBH there is still a niggle as to whether he is quirky enough to end up with some form of AS/HFA diagnosis further down the educational line.

DS3 used to find 'teletubby' colours of everything, red, purple, green and yellow, pencils, blocks you name it, and line them up. His first 20 words included the numbers 1 - 10. He could read by age 3, very hyperlexic. He still gets he and she mixed up. He's obsessed by SuperMario. He knows all the old consoles and which games went with which console in which year, etc. He's 9 now.

I think you are right, only time will tell, but at least you know what to look out for, and you'll be on the ball with getting support if needed. Autism does run in families. I can't remember the stats but it's quite high for a male sibling, I'll see if I can find the link. 20% chance rings a bell. And every child is different and presents very differently. I'd say continue to monitor. You can't help but worry.

Forgot to say DS2 has ASD and is quite different to DS3. DS3 is more AS than ASD.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14507532 This was the article that gave the chances of siblings of children with autism being affected. 18% chance on average, rising to 26% for brothers.

Keep monitoring, there are some flags there that would concern me.

thank you both, all really helpful, and it's interesting to hear others experiences

his non-echolalic language is also very good actually, he can make quite long sentences by himself "you get mine cup upstairs mine room" for example

I would be concerned about lining/ grouping things to be honest. The pulling hair and and him asking you to tie things around him is def sensory seeking in my opinion. Have u talked to GP/paed about that? Dies he have any other quirks?

I would say ds's echolalia is his most dominant "symptom" of his ASD it really is the main thing which sets him apart from his peers. We are really limiting tv at the minute and trying not to let him watch the same things over and over as it makes it so much worse. Tv also affects his sleep. Tis exhausting trying to distract him from wanting tv and the crafty sod has figured out how to use Netflix on the I pad!

Our speech and language therapist said that it's rare to find a true echolalic child without autism
I would keep a diary for a few weeks and ask for a referral to a developmental paed. We picked up the signs of autism in dd2 (dd1 had a dx already) at age two and the early input has made a huge difference to her.

If I had asked my DS to "Say goodbye to Daddy" his response would more likely have been "Goodbye to Daddy" or "Say goodbye to Daddy". So your DS's response wasn't that off-kilter. The phrase may just have reminded him of the Peppa Pig episode, and as you say, at least it's in context.

Personally I would be more worried if he echoed your questions back to you, like "Do you want a biscuit?" being repeated to you then and there, and then later repeated when he fancies another biscuit... and echolalia with pronoun confusion within it is also more concerning. You probably know all this already, but with your saying it forms about 60-70% of his speech - that is quite a lot (at least it sounds a lot to me, so imo)

I think you should get him assessed.

The things you describe could indicate asd. Or it may not be. But if it's not and you assess - you've wasted a bit of time. If it is and you do not assess - you've lost time.

iyswim.

far better to do something in cases of doubt than to work on the assumption that probably nothing is up.

Also meant to say all ds's echolalia comes from tv he never echo's what he hears from real people which is odd I would have thought it would be both?

cats - my DS was same. Then when we cut back the TV, he started repeating lines from books instead . I think the TV and books are constantly the exact same words, at the same time, so lodge in the memory the same way song lyrics do, whereas speech is a bit more variable?

Put like Hecate did, I have to say I agree. Worst case scenario with waiting lists, you could be waiting a year for appointments. Better to be on the waiting list when you are slightly concerned, then possibly be in a position to cancel, than to be at the bottom of the waiting list if you are desperately concerned.

oops sorry, forgot for a mo you had already been down the assessment route for your older DS, didn't mean to patronise!

btw I would only be concerned about the lining up/grouping if there was an absence of more conventional pretend play.

thank you for all the responses.

i wasn't sure if they would assess this early, as some of the behaviours could just be his age?
but will definitely see the GP who did the referral for DS1 and see what she reckons, I think she will probably be happy to refer us.

I appreciate what you say about wasting time if he does have ASD, is there much early intervention available on the NHS? for ds1 we were pretty much given a diagnosis and then left to get on with it
such a massive difference between that and how I see autistic kids in the US being handled, although I realise they all must have good private healthcare schemes!!

on the flip side he has quite a lot of non-asd traits (i think!) , he is very tactile and loves to be cuddled. if he hurts himself or is upset he will say "hug me" and come for a cuddle, which ds1 never did- he hated being touched.

he is quite gregarious and will happily go into school/nursery to get ds1 and ds2 and say hello to the teachers and talk to them

he does also play conventionally, he will get little figures and stuff and do their voices and have conversations with them and put them in the car/house etc and stuff liek that. and he will play with his brothers

sorry not to address everyone individually btw, I am reading all of the replies though and trying to give a general response to you all!

My eldest went rigid if you held him, hated to be touched and refused to look at you. He was diagnosed at 2 and a half.

My youngest made great eye contact and loved his cuddles.

He was diagnosed at 3.

The spectrum is massive. Funnily enough, it was how interactive my youngest was that prompted me to seek advice on my eldest.

And it was the home visiting teacher who came to work with my eldest 3 times a week who told me to get my youngest assessed.

It came as quite a shock, because I thought I knew what autism was, based on my eldest.

Every child is different.

oh, meant to say - the major difference was my eldest was, looking back, clearly autistic from birth, whereas my youngest seemed to develop 'normally' and then regress later on.

thanks hecate.

i guess i kind of know this stuff already really, but wanted someone else to say it to me so i know it isn't just me, if you see what I mean?

it's really so useful to get other people's thoughts and hear about other children who are the same. I can't imagine what people did without mumsnet! lol

Our early intervention was a specialist ASD preschool/nursery and someone visiting weekly to work one to one with her at home. We also had OT and physio imput. And speech and language including the "more than words" course.
Both my DDs are very different.

oh wow, that sounds really good lisa!