Can someone who is sympathetic to co sleeping etc talk me through PuPd or some other way of getting my 5m old to nap please?

[TheProvincialLady]

I am a real attachment parenting type. I co slept with DS1 until I was 6 months pregnant and he was 2. I wore him in a sling everywhere. I fully intended to do the same with DS2 BUT DS1 wakes him up all the time with his shouting joyful exuberance. So although DS2 still co sleeps with me, I have relunctantly come to the conclusion that I must Do Something about his daytime naps.

This is what DS2 day looks like at the moment (He is 5 months):

7.30-8am wake up, feed
10am feed to sleep in my lap for anything between half an hour and an hour
12pm - 7pm feed on demand and whinge a lot due to tiredness. Will sleep in pram for half an hour max, or up to 2.5 hours in the sling if I stay standing up and if DS1 doesn't wake him
7-9pm settles down for sleep and feeds on a good night not at all or just once, or on a bad night (rare) every 3 hours.

He can get off to sleep by himself in the pram or occasionally in bed, but generally speaking he feeds to sleep unless in the sling.

So I was thinking that PuPd might work for us, but I don't know much about it. I have set up a bedside cot in my room and plan to get DS2 to sleep in it at night as much as possible, and he really does need to learn to sleep in there during the day because he is not the happy baby that he should be and is for the first couple hours of the day, because he is not getting enough daytime sleep.

All of this goes against my instincts but for his sake I think I need to do something Can you help? I don't even know what PuPd is really. I have a week whilst DH is off work to really devote to doing this.

You lay baby in the cot when they are tired & need to sleep but not too tired. If/when they whinge/cry pick them up and cuddle/soothe them calmly & as quietly as possible. Once they are calm & relaxed lay them back down. repeat, repeat, repeat.

Think of it as "showing" them that it is okay to lay in your cot when you are tired to drift off to sleep.

I wonder if giving him a cuddly to have in the sling and then also in the cot would also help.

Have you considered taking him to a cranial osteopath just check if there is a reason why he doesn't sleep more deeply during the day?

you don't leave them upset in the cot for any length of time as soon as you sense that they are unhappy rather than that a "grizzle" then pick him up. It could take many many repeats for the first few times.

I hadn't thought of a cranial osteopath CarGirl. I just assumed I had buggered up his natural tendency to sleep well It's certainly true that he does not sleep very deeply during the day. DS1 was the same until some point (can't remember when) when he was suddenly put downable.

So presumably I might have to do the PuPd thing a LOT then? Does it tend to upset them much? I can imagine that DS1 would have screamed blue murder but maybe DS2 will be a bit different.

Any idea how long it is likely to take? And should I be trying to stick to a routine or just looking for sleep cues? Thanks for your help.

a book recommendation - the baby sleep book (sears) really helped me with some of my co-sleeping DS's nap/sleep issues.

Is that the same as Nighttime Parenting (Sears) Puddock? Because I read that with DS1 and came to the conclusion that there was nothing I could do If it is a different book I would be keen to read it and they might have it at my local LLL library.

dont think so - it was this one from local library. I dare say the ideas would be similar though.
please do let us know how you go with PuPd or whatever you try, i'd be keen to hear. good luck!

No that does look like a completely different book so I will check it out on Wednesday, thanks very much Will let you know how we get on (oh dear I am dreading it).

I actually did it on dc4 when she was days old I just looked for sleep cues, it only took about 8 attempts the first time and within 24 hours she was happy to be in her cot awake and go to sleep herself. My main reason for doing it was because I realised that if she was cuddled she would stir and then go back to sleep and miss feeds and as I have back problems and she was a huge newborn slinging wasn't an option! Also having 2 toddlers, an older child and a newborn meant I needed her to self settle happily.

I'm sure with an older baby it will take longer however perhaps the first step is not too feed him to sleep as often? Just rouse him after he's finished feeding and then let him go back to sleep being cuddled or in bed together or however you usually get him to sleep.

It's so hard, isn't it, not least because different things will work for different babies.

We've had a sidecar cot for both of our dds.

With dd1 I never managed to get her to nap in her cot at all. She always fed to sleep or fell asleep in a moving pram or car. I tried pupd with her and it resulted in epic hysterical battles. I really don't think it helped at all.

dd2 is a different kettle of fish altogether, has a lot less difficulty falling asleep than dd1 did. I have never tried pupd with her, partly because to me it just feels like a way of prolonging the agony.

She is 7 months now, and she naps well in her cot (I put the side up for naps and remove it for night-time when I'm there next to her). I put her in the cot when I know she's tired, and these days it isn't a big problem for her to get to sleep. But when she was a bit younger what I used to do was put my face next to her ear and do heavy duty (REALLY LOUD) shhhhhh-ing, while putting a hand on her body and sometimes patting her. It always worked if I gave it a good chance. It sometimes took 10 or 15 mins in total, but not longer than that and usually less time. And I'm pretty sure that if I'd picked her up when she cried she would have taken longer to get to sleep.

I don't know if this is useful to you or not, just as I don't really know whether it would have worked with dd1 if I had tried it on her!

Similar situation here with DD2 - now nearly 9 months. Only ever went to sleep in buggy / sling or fed to sleep. About a week ago I got one of those musical lullaby projector things - my friend swore by them. I really didn't think it would work. Almost felt sad putting her in awake, but there were no tears at all. A couple of tiny whimpers and I just sat beside her rubbing her belly, making soothing noises. Planned on doing PuPd if she cried, but she never did. She was asleep in about 10 mins. Has worked every night since, but takes less and less time, and she is actually waking much less during the night too - don't know why I didn't try it sooner. Mind you she is a very placid little thing, would never have worked with DD1!

Cargirl I must admit that at night I am hardly awake myself so I am not ready to tackle feeding to sleep then, but will make an effort during the day. Fingers crossed it doesn't take too long.

Yes, babies are so different aren't they? With ds1 I feel there is nothing much else I could have done. He was just a rubbish sleeper and still isn't brilliant. DS2 sleeps much better. I can't see this being anywhere near as hard as it would have been with DS1. I used to do that ssssshhhh-patting with DS1 and it took over 30 minutes at first, with both of us sobbing

SJ I have one of those projectors and DS2 did fall asleep to it a few times when he was very little - though he still woke up 40 minutes later. I will dig it out again, thanks for the suggestion.

OK so here is how today went:

Awake at 8.10am

Nap in sling at 10.30am for 1.5 hours

2pm did PuPd and it took 8 gos plus 1 minute crying in cot with me there, then he slept for 20 minutes. I BF him as he hadn't had a good feed before, but stopped before he was completely asleep. He slept for another hour.

5pm did PuPd again but this time it was obvious that he was more worked up by being picked up, so I left it after the third time and he was asleep in 2 minutes after a bit of a sob and then a whinge Slept 40 minutes.

So I think it is going well but I do feel bad. I know he is getting better sleep but I hate letting him cry. Does it get any easier?

What an encouraging start.

Why thank you

It does get much easier don't worry, and the more consistent you are with it the quicker it will get easier for both of you.

Although it's worth bearing in mind that some babies sometimes have a whinge or a repetitive little cry before dropping off as a way of settling themselves. My DD does this when she's got a bit overtired (and did it a lot when we were tackling naps with PUPD). It was different from a proper upset cry IYSWIM, more of a repetitive sound?

It's so hard doing any kind of 'training' to help them sleep when you're used to snuggling up next to them, but it really does help.

Also a suggestion - if DS doesn't drop off when you're attempting a nap in his cot or is having a bad day it might be worth then taking him out in the buggy for a nap as an alternative to the sling so he gets used to dropping off somewhere where he's not warm and snuggled with mummy. Might help and will also feel less like you're 'giving in' if he ever does struggle or get really upset in the cot. And you say he settles himself easily in the buggy so this won't be upsetting for you either.

Best of luck x

Today he has gone down without so much as a pick up or a sob and has been asleep within 2 minutes I think we may have cracked it.

CCL I know what you means about the whinge. DS was doing that last night when settling down to sleep (I was trying to feed to sleep as usual but he was having none of it and just rolled away from me to do it himself). Before I would have picked him up by now I think I can tell when he is upset and when he wants me to leave him alone. Good tip about the buggy too, thanks.

Thanks for your support everyone. I was expecting it to be hellish but actually it has been surprisingly OK

Good grief. Congratulations! That's amazing.

Thanks, I'm fairly stunned myself. Can I buy shares in PuPd? I reckon I can't lose

In fact I might write to Dr Sears and tell him he is a complete loser and that I blame him for all of DS1's sleep problems.

(Only joking, I still lugged DS2 round in a sling as much as I could today and I'm not going to stop co sleeping even though I'm sure I could get him sleeping in a cot through the night too now)

Perhaps he actually likes the space and peace of being on his own now he is older. One of mine loved her moses basket when she was a newborn she lay there stretched out and napped for england completely the opposite of what you expect. They are all so different.

I hope it continues. You can always go down the side car cot type set up to co-sleep if it makes you both happier.

Glad to hear things are going well! For what it's worth, I think we can be led up the garden path just as easily by fervent attachment parenting books as much as the opposite 'she who must not be named' and Claire Verity etc... finding some middle ground that suits your baby and the type of parent you want to be is tough!

No reason why you shouldn't continue cosleeping at night but having DS2 napping independently during the day, sounds like a great plan . We'd probably still be doing that if it hadn't got to the point where DD was being disturbed by us (well DH snoring) during the night. She's in her own room now, but I loved cosleeping and miss waking up next to her lovely warm cuddliness and smiles.

Yes CarGirl, I think he does like the space and definitely the peace. DH has now set up a side car cot thingy so I am settling DS to sleep in there in the night too, but he is still right next to me.

Crazycatlady you are absolutely right about finding a parenting style that suits us and our babies rather than following a 'method'. I do think that AP is the best thing for babies but hell, if my actual baby prefers to be upstairs asleep rather than in the sling, it makes sense to listen to him rather than the book. It also shows how much I am influenced by my LLL group and friends (very AP types), because I have actually been feeling guilty about this rather than pleased for all of us that DS2 is sleeping better.