Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

"their deletion message suggests that they really think we all want threads entirely full of discussion of pronouns"

Just to be absolutely crystal clear to mnhq, I did not want to discuss pronouns, I wanted to discuss Edinburgh uni's silence on the hate speech of Ada wells.

"I have to confess I have never actually seen or heard of any transactivists who don't tend towards the extreme, and I would be interested to read there views if anyone can point me?"

That is a really interesting point. I think the problem is, that declaring that you are the opposite sex because you feel like you are, is in of itself an extreme position. There's no way you can water that down really.

Like any religion: if you believe in God, then that's an extreme position. If you're absolutely certain in the knowledge that God exists, then that in of itself is an extreme belief.

The thing with the God religion, is that it can be contained to some degree, by all of us agreeing that the people who go in for it, can continue to go in for it and we can all just ignore it and that way we can all rub along quite happily.

The transreligion otoh is based on the idea that the rest of us must submit to the ideology and agree or at least pretend to agree, in their religion. Further, if we don't do so, the law should ensure that in public spaces, should we mention that, we should be punished.

There's no such thing as a moderate transactivist who declares that s/he/ they are the opposite biological sex just because they feel like they are.

However, there is a moderate "wing" as it were of transactivism, which does not declare that just feeling like the opposite sex means that you are the opposite sex; if you look up Miranda Yardley (she's just the one I happen to know most about, but there are others) you'll find that she does not claim she is a woman. She says she's a man, but she feels like a woman and she feels happier living as a woman so that's what she does.

I'm happy to support transwomen like her, because they are attached to reality, they don't hate women and they are not on a constant trip to exert power over women by making us comply with a religious doctrine. And for publicly saying what she says, Miranda gets unbelievable levels of threat and insult from mainstream religious transactivists.

So, to be clear, Ego, you object (rightly) to Ada Wells being considered a spokesperson for trans people, and (rightly) to the suggestion that all transactivists are at the extreme end of the spectrum. But when asked for names of transactivists with more moderate views you refuse to give them.

Wow, this thread is such a great example of the OP starting out as one thing, an attempt to get clarification from MNHQ on discussions surrounding women and lesbians &a deleted thread, and it has been derailed by the same conversation that had the last thread deleted. I nominate thus thread for fucking Classics, it is such a shining example.

MNHQ, any suggestions on how to keep important threads from constantly getting derailed?

I would be interested (not cause of this thread, it happens a lot) in views as to whether persistent intentional derailing should be added to the the talk guidelines?

But an Islamist wants Islam to be integrated with politics? No matter how moderate, it is incompatible with secular society? Transactivism is no different?

So yes, "they think all women are cuntscum" is wrong (I don't see how that sentence alone is 100% clear they are referring to AFTA/TRA's and not Ada, but ). "They think gender is innate" not so much

It is a TAAT. It is also, as I hope MNHQ will see, in Site Stuff. Where we discuss Site Stuff. It is not really avoidable, in discussing Site Stuff, to avoid some reference to the thread with the deletion message.

The reason why you won't point to kind, inclusive transactivism is because like us, you don't know where it is.

That's the only conclusion you leave us with.

I would be interested (not cause of this thread, it happens a lot) in views as to whether persistent intentional derailing should be added to the the talk guidelines?

Me too.

Ego if you want to use the Muslim analogy, I would suggest it is more like transactivists=ISIS transpeople = Muslims

Hence the difficulty in finding moderate ISIS/transactivist views?

MNHQ: I am not equating transactivists to ISIS except in the context of an analogy used by another poster.

Islamists are not the same thing as Muslims, Ego. Quite a sleight of hand there.

The thing is, I have Muslim friends, so I can ask them. I don't have trans friends, ergo I can't ask them. I don't think "go and Google" is particularly helpful. Especially as it can lead to the very misinformation you are arguing against. You despair at me misunderstanding your definition of a transactivist but don't help me to educate myself.

But there is no evidence of moderate trans-activists, I have looked.

Can you link to "There are plenty of prominent trans activists who write in the press"?

The thing that blows my mind is that unlike other extremists, transactivists are actually influencing policy and legislation.

Like Steofonknee who was named checked by the Canadian government for their contribution to trans rights legislation. (For those of you who don't know, Steofonknee is a 50+ male who recently life his wife and children to live as a 6 year old girl, and enjoys anal sex with their "adopted father"). Now normally we'd just say nobody woukd take them seriously, but Stefonknee is a respected TA and I've not heard anybody trans (except the consistently brilliant Miranda Yardley) condemn them and say "this person does not speak for me or represent me in any way"

You're pretty much admitting there are no activists who don't fit the stereotypes.

If that's really what you are getting from Ego's posts, MrsMerton, it explains your attitude. But if you read them properly you will see that that is very clearly not what she is saying. Why are people who acknowledge that Ada is at the most extreme end of the spectrum demanding details of more moderate activists? Surely that acknowledgement of necessity involves acceptance that most activists are more moderate?

ego, saying 'most' is different from saying 'they'.

Surely that is exactly the point Ego is making?

Why not go on there Because we are having this discussion here. When I googled I came up with such gems as Stefoknee and Ada.

and off the tracks again.

Can we report for persistent derailing?

also DropYourSword it leads to the situation where in order to find a transactivist who doesn't hate women we have to sift through pages of search results of insults and threats of violence.

I don't particularly want to spend my morning doing that. I would find it extremely upsetting, threatening & triggering. I don't think that I am unique amongst women by feeling like that.

Ego could help avoid that situation offering links or names supporting Egos's position that there are lots of nice transactivists and Ada is an abberration. But Ego won't do that