Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

Do something positive then instead of whinging about stereotypes. Find a TRA who isn't a stereotype and give them a platform here so that we can have honest and open discussion.

Not much to ask is it.

I don't know Ego. Maybe. Isn't that what makes them transactivists?

Sorry, reading that back that didn't come across well. I don't mean that in a disrespectful way. I just mean what is the definition of a transactivist. As opposed to a transwoman.

The overwhelming evidence on these threads is that of misogyny. You're pretty much admitting there are no activists who don't fit the stereotypes.
I'm not going to engage any more because you actually have an incredibly thin argument which is one you use to derail the threads and turn them into the egoshow.

So the bottom line is that people failed to do the verbal and grammatical gymnastics sufficiently for their conversation about this matter to be acceptable?

I'll put my hand up and say plainly, I don't know how. This is advanced reorganisation of the language and grammar I grew up with. If we are not allowed to talk about this how is anyone going to learn or move towards a more supportive or more socially acceptable view point? As people have said on this thread, trans issue threads are beginning to be actively avoided because people know they have no hope of doing it right or managing to express an opinion without being jumped up and down on for not doing it couched in sufficiently sensitive terms. Surely that is going to create negative impressions by itself?

And there is a difference between making a clear, valid and helpful point and making it well - which was done - and then endlessly jumping up and down on that point until the thread is completely derailed and has turned into a personal argument between a small group. That's killed many threads this year on contentious issues of all kinds and made them subjects that can't be talked about, and I wish that could be better moderated without other posters fleeing the scene to escape the carnage and learning to avoid any thread mentioning those subjects, and the important stuff in the thread that many people would have wanted to read ending up deleted with the bunfight.

"So you think that ALL transactivists think women are cuntscum, want to rape them etc etc?"

No, I don't. I also don't think all transactivists think women should give up some of their rights to accommodate transwomen.

But I would really like it if more of the ones who don't were a bit more public about it. I want someone I can stand beside without having to think about defending women's hard won rights.

ego, saying 'most' is different from saying 'they'. The one is not demonstrably 'othering'. They're factually different statements.

'Most UKIP party members support Farage' is a statement allowing for the possibility that some thing he's a bleeding-heart liberal and want someone else.

'They are all members of a party with strong views on immigration' is a different kind of statement. It refers to the whole group, because the group (UKIP supporters) is, in its entirety, the people who are members of that party, which has those views.

If someone says 'Feminists, they do this,' and I think that the statement is wrong, it sometimes gets on my nerves, but MNHQ has made it abundantly clear that people are entitled to this kind of statement.

You know this, and I know this, because it's often been you who has made these kinds of statements.

You cannot demand one rule for you and people you agree with, and one rule for everyone else.

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeezus fucking H Christ.

Is this me-rail still going on?

I think OP meant this thread as a plea to MNHQ to stop allowing threads about women, and even more specifically about lesbian women, to be deleted on the say so of some reports.

It seems to be going off track here, and despite multiple reports it seems MNHQ haven't seen it yet? Is this another thread about women that's going to end up being deleted? Before MNHQ even respond?

"You cannot demand one rule for you and people you agree with, and one rule for everyone else."

That's exactly what can be demanded by some groups. And MN will comply. Because they're all over the place on this one.

The "what is a trans-activist?" question is quite an interesting one.

Obviously at one end of the spectrum you have extremists like Ada - but even at the other end of the (presumed spectrum) it can be problematic.

If "moderate" transactivists are eg fighting against discrimination what does that mean ? If it means they are fighting for the right to be treated as a woman there are obvious issues.

I have to confess I have never actually seen or heard of any transactivists who don't tend towards the extreme, and I would be interested to read there views if anyone can point me?

I think MNHQ have gone to have a lie down, having seen the god knows how many threads.

I bet they never want to see the word they again.

Oh no, I just referred to MNHQ as they. Is that wrong now?

Fuck I can't hack this.

I think the description AFTAS is good.

HQ frequently delete whole threads (not just individual posts) when they get out of hand and there are loads of reports flying around. The deletion messages on those threads never really makes sense. There is absolutely an element of sanitising the site and keeping the advertisers happy in that.

Meanwhile, can I make a special case for banning the next poster who uses that tired old thing.

I think the description AFTAS is good

I have read the full thread and have forgotten what that means

I asked a genuine question Ego. I haven't been rude to you at all, and I am trying to learn and understand. I took the term 'transactivist' to literally mean people with similar beliefs to Ada. If I'm wrong I apologise, but I'm coming from a perspective of genuinely open learning.

I think OP meant this thread as a plea to MNHQ to stop allowing threads about women, and even more specifically about lesbian women, to be deleted on the say so of some reports.

Well, I accept MNHQ don't delete just on say-so. But I keep seeing threads that become very long, and full of people getting upset on all sides, because the end up (yet again) getting derailed.

It's not that I think trans issues, or pronoun choices, are unimportant. It's not that I do not respect that for some people these are hugely personal and will be upsetting to discuss, and tempers will run high. It's just that it seems to be we can't discuss anything else, and some of the issues raised on the last thread seem very important to women's lives.

I don't know why MNHQ deleted that specific thread, but their deletion message suggests that they really think we all want threads entirely full of discussion of pronouns. So they're not going to see it as derailing, are they?

I want them to know that it often is derailing.

Anti female transactivists.

I think (?) it's like the distinction between "Muslims think" (=no) and "Islamists think".
Trans people think (=no), transactivists think (=Noone has shown me otherwise)

Though I am far from an expert on Islam to know for certain that "Islamists" is appropriate usage, it's just something I've seen here recently.

Can we have some examples of moderate transactivists, please?