Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

[WaitrosePigeon]

Kiran, your replies to us are crap.

[OlennasWimple]

Batteries - my uni soc experience was very much like yours except that the LGB society (and indeed the wider gay scene) was very much dominated by gay men. The Women's Officer was often gay, so in effect had the double job of representing women and gay women. I don't know the extent to which any of the elected officers provided pastoral support and guidance to confused teens, but they were paid officers on a sabbatical and didn't really come under as much scrutiny as one might have thought, given we were all paying their salaries through our union subs (and drinking in the union bar)

[MorrisZapp]

Fwiw I'll happily accept the use of cis (even though I hate it) if we can open up free speech both ways. We can't open up a debate by asking for more words to be banned.

[BertrandRussell]

Sorry- I won't accept the use of cis.

Happy to use any pronouns, though. And to use the convoluted syntax to avoid misunderstandings.

[OlennasWimple]

I owe MNHQ an apology - they did reply to say that they won't be changing their current policy on "cis" (that is someone asks for it not to be used in relation to them and another pp persists in doing so, it is mis-gendering, but it is not considering an offensive term in and of itself). Though there wasn't much evidence that they had gone away and given it deep consideration, which is what they had said that they were going to do.

I've with Bertrand - I won't accept the use of cis. If someone wants to be referred to as he / she / they / it, I'm happy to do so, even if it leads to some really clunky syntax (my posting style isn't always graceful anyway....)

[SenecaFalls]

Sorry- I won't accept the use of cis.

I won't either. I might be a hyphenated American (we all are really) but I'm not a hyphenated woman.

[sentia]

I don't accept being labelled as cis either. Buffy (as always) has it with the venn diagram - cis implies an underlying gender essentialism that I wholeheartedly reject.

[sentia]

I knew a few - one lesbian, two gay men - who thought that they weren't gay, they were the opposite gender, as that seemed easier to process in many ways than being gay. So a man dressed up as a woman can look at himself in the mirror and say it's ok to fancy men, because I'm being a woman.

A while ago someone (I wish I could remember who and find it!) posted a link to research showing that restrictive gender roles for men and women in a given society meant the evolution of a "third gender" was more likely. For example, in countries where homosexuality is illegal but gender reassignment surgery is not, there is usually a much higher percentage of people identifying as trans than in countries where homosexuality is not illegal.

Gender damages everyone

[MatildaOfTuscany]

Re. rigid gender roles in societies, that's certainly something I've been told by an American friend of mine who is a professor of anthropology. And I do find it interesting that the rise of trans activism also seems to have coincided with an anti-feminist backlash in our society, particularly when it comes to raising children (the "pinkification/khakification" of toys).

[rumblingDMexploitingbstds]

I put this on the other thread, it's so brilliant i'm putting it here.

One woman's voice summarising pretty much everything being discussed here, clearly, pleasantly, and why women's rights are entitled to be women's first priority.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/

[NotAnotherHarlot]

That GenderTrender video is brilliant.

[Memoires]

You know, I think if Ada had been given a slapped wrist and told not to be silly early on in their career as a nonrepresentative of the LGBT community in Edinburgh then they might have grown up a bit. I know that Universities are bastions of freedom for young people just flying the nest but they are in loco parentis and sometimes should act so. OK I reckon I'm going to have to change my nn now.