Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

Stevie Thank you for copying the post across.

You say that These are the kinds of conversations that need to be had because misgendering might not be polite but it is simply not an act of violence like death threats and rape. It simply isn't and immediately lying that misgendering is worse than committing acts of violence once again privileges men at the expense of women's safety.

I think this is a really important point. For every transwoman who is "recorded"as a woman it begins to erase women. Violent transwomen get added to female violence statistics, TW CEOs get added to the female CEO statistics, TW in STEM get added to the females in STEM statistics. All of this erases women and helps to hide sex bias.

Regardless of different viewpoints, everybody seems to think the deletion message is incorrect. Again.

What is the point of deletion messages if they are just made up shite?

Except they are not really defending their position Judy they are just arguing for arguings sake. I've learned my lesson, I won't engage further.
Thanks for the link Stewie - nothing there to disabuse me of the presumptions I made and so I'll carry on believing so!

But, judy, some things are derailing.

I totally accept that pronoun conversations may be valid and important.

I just feel upset that they seem to have to happen everywhere.

Surely, it should be possible to discuss this situation, which is about so much more than the preferred pronouns of Ada Wells, without rehashing the same questions?

What do we think students should be doing in LGBT societies? How do young women understand their sexualities? Is it something that is changing? Is there something we can do? What experiences have posters had, that we could discuss, so we can say more about our own sexualities?

All interesting questions. But I think these questions constantly become overwhelmed. What is really worrying (aside from derailing and whether we agree it's that that is happening) is that MNHQ seem unaware that we might be wanting to discuss any of these other questions. They see threads, and think 'oh, it's about pronouns. That is what they're all talking about these days'.

So, they are not in a good position to moderate debates, because they don't even recognise what a lot of us are trying to discuss.

A clear example of the type of bullying that concerned me on the other thread.

Bullying. You truly have no idea what real bullying is.

Did I name anyone? It seems to me there is a lot of derailing on this thread which is precisely why I posted.

There is, I'm afraid, a bit of a flavour of a minority of people trying to exclude opinions that don't accord precisely with their own.

No. There isn't. Hell of a lot of PA bullshit, though.

They see threads, and think 'oh, it's about pronouns. That is what they're all talking about these days'.

To answer your question LRD, I don't think they do think that at all. I think they are caught in a difficult position when trying to figure out what is correct and get bogged down with that!

I'm sure I saw somewhere on the forum the other day a link to a petition from a lesbian group wishing for lesbians to withdraw as a group from LGBT groups to form their own single group, as their interests were not just becoming lost but were becoming actively in conflict with the interests of other groups.

It was interesting in A.W's manifesto that all focus was on the T aspect of the group and addressing the T issues, and as discussed, the belief was being shared that the G aspect of the group should willingly and actively surrender ground and platform as not deserving of or in need of compared to the T needs. As someone mentioned earlier, it's becoming an alphabet soup and a group of competing, if not conflicting, agendas.

What do we think students should be doing in LGBT societies

It think it would be a lot simpler if they dropped the T. LGB is all about sexuality, T isn't and as Ada showed some trans ideology is directly opposed to LGB?

drop - maybe they do get bogged down.

But, having seen a lot of threads like this, and a lot of deletion messages, I actually do think they don't know the context (and why should they).

The issue (to me, anyway) is as buffy says. A lot of young women are finding it extremely difficult to express their views. A lot of us, who're not young, are finding it difficult too, for that matter. These debates are hard. But if MNHQ think that the central issue of every thread is to do with pronouns, then they can't really be expected to moderate properly.

It was LGB when I was at uni late 80s, and very closely tied in with the women's officer post and groups.

I've come across suggestions, both to drop the T and for lesbians to separate out. I think both are tricky, though. Sexuality being as it is, if you transition, people's perception of your sexuality will change - even if you originally identified as bisexual and still do, because we view bisexuality through a gendered lens anyway. There's also some evidence to suggest that transitioning can shift your sexuality in itself.

Lesbians separating out seems to me as if it would be lovely, but what worries me so much is that a lot of students seem barely to feel they're allowed to be lesbians, let alone ask for a space to themselves.

Mnhq have commented on the chat thread

I was confused by a question from a form put up on the deleted thread that asked for sexuality, which then listed I think straight, trans, queer, and a couple of other options but not gay or lesbian. As if trans/queer (can't remember the other option, might have been agender?) would have no sexuality such as straight, bi, gay, lesbian, pan, asexual, and lesbians and gay men didn't exist. The confusion at all levels seems to be huge.

There would also be many MtF trans people who would identify as lesbians and see their chosen place as being within a separate lesbian society, which again raises the issue of conflicting needs and agendas, and the conflict of the view that self identifying women have the right to be recognised as women and included in all women only activities, and the view that born women have the right to born women only activities and spaces.

ego, you realise, you're now asking the sorts of disbelieving questions you fly off the handle at when other people ask them. You are also asking for information in precisely the way that makes you start telling people to go and look on the internet.

However: yes, for many people, it is still very hard to come out. For some people, it is harder now than I think it was ten or so years ago, because they are concerned that lesbianism cannot be about attraction and genitalia.

Of course, for some people, genitalia really aren't a big component of attraction, but for others, they are. And I see a lot of young women who are unsure how to negotiate this.

There is also a lot of religious pressure, which I think is on the up and up. A backlash, if you like.

And there is the influence of porn, which I think is getting stronger and stronger, and reinforcing the idea that lesbianism is all about being extremely sexually available.

Finally, there is the pressure of people who believe that the issues are either solved, or greatly reduced, and therefore make young women feel guilty for even admitting to having these worries.

What are the issues

Lesbians are inherently transphobic. They are also incredibly shallow for focusing purely on someones genitals rather than their personality.

Mnhq have commented on the chat thread

Where please?

"I really hoped we'd moved on and things were easier. But this is something that I don't really know about.

What are the issues?"

Seriously???????

Tell you what. Why not go and Google.