Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

[Memoires]

You know, I think if Ada had been given a slapped wrist and told not to be silly early on in their career as a nonrepresentative of the LGBT community in Edinburgh then they might have grown up a bit. I know that Universities are bastions of freedom for young people just flying the nest but they are in loco parentis and sometimes should act so. OK I reckon I'm going to have to change my nn now.

[NotAnotherHarlot]

That GenderTrender video is brilliant.

[rumblingDMexploitingbstds]

I put this on the other thread, it's so brilliant i'm putting it here.

One woman's voice summarising pretty much everything being discussed here, clearly, pleasantly, and why women's rights are entitled to be women's first priority.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/

[MatildaOfTuscany]

Re. rigid gender roles in societies, that's certainly something I've been told by an American friend of mine who is a professor of anthropology. And I do find it interesting that the rise of trans activism also seems to have coincided with an anti-feminist backlash in our society, particularly when it comes to raising children (the "pinkification/khakification" of toys).

[sentia]

I knew a few - one lesbian, two gay men - who thought that they weren't gay, they were the opposite gender, as that seemed easier to process in many ways than being gay. So a man dressed up as a woman can look at himself in the mirror and say it's ok to fancy men, because I'm being a woman.

A while ago someone (I wish I could remember who and find it!) posted a link to research showing that restrictive gender roles for men and women in a given society meant the evolution of a "third gender" was more likely. For example, in countries where homosexuality is illegal but gender reassignment surgery is not, there is usually a much higher percentage of people identifying as trans than in countries where homosexuality is not illegal.

Gender damages everyone

[sentia]

I don't accept being labelled as cis either. Buffy (as always) has it with the venn diagram - cis implies an underlying gender essentialism that I wholeheartedly reject.

[SenecaFalls]

Sorry- I won't accept the use of cis.

I won't either. I might be a hyphenated American (we all are really) but I'm not a hyphenated woman.

[OlennasWimple]

I owe MNHQ an apology - they did reply to say that they won't be changing their current policy on "cis" (that is someone asks for it not to be used in relation to them and another pp persists in doing so, it is mis-gendering, but it is not considering an offensive term in and of itself). Though there wasn't much evidence that they had gone away and given it deep consideration, which is what they had said that they were going to do.

I've with Bertrand - I won't accept the use of cis. If someone wants to be referred to as he / she / they / it, I'm happy to do so, even if it leads to some really clunky syntax (my posting style isn't always graceful anyway....)

[BertrandRussell]

Sorry- I won't accept the use of cis.

Happy to use any pronouns, though. And to use the convoluted syntax to avoid misunderstandings.

[MorrisZapp]

Fwiw I'll happily accept the use of cis (even though I hate it) if we can open up free speech both ways. We can't open up a debate by asking for more words to be banned.

[OlennasWimple]

Batteries - my uni soc experience was very much like yours except that the LGB society (and indeed the wider gay scene) was very much dominated by gay men. The Women's Officer was often gay, so in effect had the double job of representing women and gay women. I don't know the extent to which any of the elected officers provided pastoral support and guidance to confused teens, but they were paid officers on a sabbatical and didn't really come under as much scrutiny as one might have thought, given we were all paying their salaries through our union subs (and drinking in the union bar)

[WaitrosePigeon]

Kiran, your replies to us are crap.

[OlennasWimple]

I don't think that MNHQ has the competence to deal with a contentious, fast-moving and emotive issue like this, TBH. We've seen that time and again with the deletion messages, banning decisions - heck, I'm still waiting for a proper reply to my request from weeks ago that we ban the term "cis" from MNHQ as it is so offensive to so many posters. I'm not saying that in a sneery way - I don't know of another online forum who is doing a better job of moderating on this issue - just a statement of fact, but one that means that when threads get a bit wobbly MNHQ isn't well-placed to carefully steer it back on course in the same way that I have seen on other issues.

[NauticalDisaster]

MNHQ that was an overtly simplistic answer to a complex issue, and a response that didn't actually address the OP.

Can you please try and and engage on this issue? How about a closed discussion group like you've done for sponsors? About a webchat?

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Sorry - Kiran (autocorrect)

[MaudGonneMad]

Poor old Kiran clearly drew the short straw, and has had to post essentially the same bland single transferable MNHQ 'response' on all the threads addressing this issue this morning.

Doesn't really seem like it matters what the thread is actually about.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I'm gonna c&p batteries post from above Kieran's contribution cause it needs resaying :)

...

Yes LRD I think that too but without sounding dismissive of the specific needs of lesbian and bisexual women, I think all women would benefit from being able to join a society that explores specifically female sexuality. That's why I think 'women's societies' are the way forward.

Many many women now believe that sexuality = availability and that is the pervasive message of our society. I think it must be so difficult for a young woman nowadays to identify as lesbian because first she has to accept that she is in charge of her body and sexuality and only then can she decide that she is sexually attracted to women. Agree with the previous poster about male-orientated lesbian porn that equates lesbian with availability (and with retaining all the 'for men' markers of attractiveness).

Basically I think there is a wider fight in educating all women that their sexuality does not equate to being a receptacle for a penis. I'm not very up to date with the hate speech of Ada but the whole women need to be raped thing is tired and grossly familiar now.

Hopefully the needs of lesbian women could sit safely within that wider space.

[IfTheCapFitsWearIt]

Rightyho kiran

[BertrandRussell]

"But we feel as moderators, it's not our place to control conversation as explicitly as saying people can't discuss certain issues on threads."

But isn't that exactly what you're doing?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

kiran, thanks for replying - but is there any chance at all you could reply to my OP, or any of the other points made?

You've just done exactly the same thing here that I found so frustrating on the original thread - you've come in, and told us we can all talk about trans issues.

I know we can do that. I can see we can.

But can we talk about anything else, without it being shut down or deleted?

Did you realise that the thread where you instructed us to go away and talk more about pronouns, was not originally about pronouns?

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I've not seen you around before kiran, now twice in one day! Are you following me?

[MaudGonneMad]

But we feel as moderators, it's not our place to control conversation as explicitly as saying people can't discuss certain issues on threads.

Isn't this what your deletion message states?

[KiranMumsnet]

Morning all,

We know it's frustrating when a thread takes a direction that you didn't anticipate or want. But we feel as moderators, it's not our place to control conversation as explicitly as saying people can't discuss certain issues on threads.

We know we're a broken record - but we do feel the best way to allow everyone to have their say is to allow free-flowing conversation, and to make sure that everyone sticks within the talk guidelines, so threads don't descend into nastiness.

For those interested, we have commented more generally about moderation on transgenderism on another thread here.

[Batteriesallgone]

Yes LRD I think that too but without sounding dismissive of the specific needs of lesbian and bisexual women, I think all women would benefit from being able to join a society that explores specifically female sexuality. That's why I think 'women's societies' are the way forward.

Many many women now believe that sexuality = availability and that is the pervasive message of our society. I think it must be so difficult for a young woman nowadays to identify as lesbian because first she has to accept that she is in charge of her body and sexuality and only then can she decide that she is sexually attracted to women. Agree with the previous poster about male-orientated lesbian porn that equates lesbian with availability (and with retaining all the 'for men' markers of attractiveness).

Basically I think there is a wider fight in educating all women that their sexuality does not equate to being a receptacle for a penis. I'm not very up to date with the hate speech of Ada but the whole women need to be raped thing is tired and grossly familiar now.

Hopefully the needs of lesbian women could sit safely within that wider space.