Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

[Snowshimmer]

YY OP and ThatStewie.

[Italiangreyhound]

How sad, we now cannot call a spade a spade, or a misogynistic bastard a misogynistic bastard.

Surely rules about referring to each other by preferred pronouns should apply for those we are speaking to/with, not random 'celebrities' who put their stories out there and whose stories we discuss on an anonymous forum!

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

brek - yes. I'd like to be able to discuss how young lesbians are forming their identities, especially. They're a group who seem to me to be at risk in a lot of ways, and it is a really important debate.

[Greaterthanthesumoftheparts]

We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps

Or we might like to discuss women's ishooz (apparently they're not all that
Important) without being accused of being transphobic.

[AskBasil]

Is it transphobic to not want to sleep with a person with a dick because you are a lesbian, MN?

Because transactivists say it is. Lesbians think it's lesbophobic, to tell them that they are bigots for not wanting to have a penis in their body.

Funnily enough, no-one calls heterosexual men transphobic, for not wanting dick.

Only women.

Got that definition yet?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

ego, you are just not being truthful.

[russetbella1000]

With LRD obviously...

[AskBasil]

Oh farkin ell to understanding people will want to discuss pronouns elsewhere.

I never want to discuss fucking pronouns ever again.

I am sick to death of pronouns.

[MatildaOfTuscany]

Yes to Basil's succinct summary.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

See - basil, I honestly don't think I agree with you entirely, on this.

Which should be fine, and interesting, and worth debating. I would love to be able to discuss this stuff, and figure out where we all stand, and how we're using terms like 'lesbian,' and what we think about the relationship between nature and nurture, and so on. It seems important to me.

But we never seem to get to have those conversations and I want to find a way. Surely, even if you end up concluding I'm lesbophobic or I end up deciding you're transphobic, it is better to be able to discuss these things than not?

[AyeAmarok]

To be honest, I find it quite upsetting that we cannot discuss the increasing erosion of women's rights on this site, of all places.

[Brandnewiggi]

There are loads of threads discussing pronouns and general trans issues. I had not before today heard of this person, but as a resident of the same city I would like to discuss the disgraceful goings on in the university. I did not see tonight's thread. Is it really the case we are not allowed to discuss this person's actions?

[MorrisZapp]

Come off it Ego you derailed that thread massively and you know it. Stop arguing that black is white - most of us were there.

[MardyGrave]

I was following the end of the thread and just wanted to add my voice to the disappointment in the move by mnhq to delete the thread. I actually feel really let down by not only your decision hq, but your belittling attitude to your users and our intellect.

this was an actual worthwhile discussion taking place, nothing to do with pronouns.

[Buunychops]

In with LDR.

And honestly I'm confused, I don't want to insult anyone but the sands shift every minute.

[AskBasil]

LRD - completely agree.

We should be able to discuss this.

Here.

[quicklydecides]

I learn a lot from those types of thread, I don't think they should be deleted.
Mnhq you should start to trust the bulk of lurkers like me, we listen, we learn, we rise above the occasional pettiness and we understand the enormity of the issues.

[NauticalDisaster]

YY AyeAmarok

[MorrisZapp]

We can discuss the persons actions, yes. But we mustn't put it into any kind of broader context or notice any current trends as this is 'othering'. To be repeated ad nauseum until the whole thread is fucked.

[Snowshimmer]

MNHQ I and others on the thread were worried about the young lesbian and bi women at the University where the LGBT officer was a misogynist and lesbophobe. That's what I want to discuss not pronouns.