Are we allowed to talk about women and/or lesbians?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I'm referring to the deleted thread from Chat today. It was started to discuss issues arising from some of the statements made by Edinburgh University's ex-LGBT rep, which were anti-semitic, misogynistic and lesbophobic (amongst other things.

This rep identifies as trans. Various posters (both trans and not) were either ignorant of their preferred pronouns, or didn't use them consistently. I can believe some people also deliberately misgendered them; I didn't see. The debate, so far as I understand it, ended with the claim that we should not use 'they' in statements of the form 'This group, they are like this' or 'This group, they do that'.

This may be a valid debate. I don't know. But it seemed to me it was a complete derail of the original debate, and one that replicates the exact type of erasure that LGBT students at Edinburgh were experiencing when they were being made to feel unwelcome.

MNHQ's deletion message included this: We understand folks will want to talk more about pronouns and trans issues in general on another thread perhaps - but we would ask that you do so in way that doesn't rehash or repeat this thread.

HQ, could you please let us know why you think everything has to be dominated by discussions like this? Can't there be some way of restricting them, so they don't take over every attempt to discuss misogyny or lesbianism or bisexuality?

There were posters on that thread sharing very personal experiences, and to delete the thread with the claim that we've discussed pronouns in the wrong way seems insulting.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

In the past week, I've heard someone say they prefer the term 'queer' to 'lesbian' because they associate 'lesbian' with excluding transwomen.

I am part of a group for lesbians, who are currently debating the use of the word 'woman' in the group title, because it might be seen as transphobic.

I am reading academic papers discussing these terms, and I can't count how many come out every year.

I don't think this can be dismissed as something trivial, or something that's just about young women getting a bit silly and worried (as young women are so prone to do ... ). Yet, that's how I think it's often framed. As if you can say 'yes dear, but just don't be transphobic and there will be no issue'. People's thoughts and feelings are not as clear-cut as that.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

I think in some ways we have moved backwards, actually.

[MorrisZapp]

I was at university donkeys years ago and i had no awareness of the gaysoc as I was too drunk.

I suppose I imagined that the gaysoc and now it's current incarnation was a positive, safe and supportive place for young gay people in amongst an almost violently straight social scene.

This story about Ada has made me realise I'm clueless about the prevailing gay rights culture amongst young adults. I'm alright Jack but I have a son and I worry so much about the future landscape for him if he is gay, or that of his friends etc.

[MorrisZapp]

Lesbian is being dropped because it sounds transphobic? Oh my lord.

[BertrandRussell]

"I think in some ways we have moved backwards, actually."

Yep.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Agree that we have gone backwards.

[Batteriesallgone]

I am straight so apologies if some of this is a misunderstanding on my part.

I was at uni ten years ago. The LGBT society never did sit 'right' and I suspect it never has. However seperating it out, though discussed among students back then, was agreed wouldn't work. Basically because uni is often the first opportunity a lot of young people have to really think about their identity and sexuality away from the pressures of parents and people they've always known.

My understanding is/was that many get to uni knowing that for example they don't want to have any more fumbles with people of the opposite sex, but don't yet identify as gay. I knew a few - one lesbian, two gay men - who thought that they weren't gay, they were the opposite gender, as that seemed easier to process in many ways than being gay. So a man dressed up as a woman can look at himself in the mirror and say it's ok to fancy men, because I'm being a woman.

Unfortunately providing support to the students who were still working out their identity was very much at odds with the needs of lesbian / gay people who came to uni in full knowledge of being gay and wanted to use the LGBT society to meet partners and feel less like the 'only gay in the village'.

This was my impression from uni ten years ago from working with the student uni president (a lovely guy who got drawn into these debates quite often) and from having lesbian/gay friends with direct experience. I didn't know any transsexuals though just a few gay men who got into the drag queen scene.

It doesn't surprise me that the 'T' section of LGBT societies is pushing out the others now that 'T' is more mainstream and has a louder voice. Personally I think - and felt at university - that women's societies should come back in a big way.

I think there are a lot of women identifying as straight, and now they'd be married with kids, who if they had had a female society with a strong lesbian society subsection would have had more chance to fully explore their sexuality and be happier for it. I am thinking particularly of a couple of girls I knew who were clearly in a romantic relationship without sex, but were also in DV relationships with male students, which kept them in their place as receptacles of penises.

[JacquettaWoodville]

Nailed it, Buffy.

[MorrisZapp]

Buffy has it. We can't politely discuss it and agree to disagree. It just doesn't work.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

batteries - YY, that sounds quite similar to my sense of what the LGBT soc was like, and I'm roughly contemporary with you. I do agree, it's complex and obviously it's an umbrella group which is going to offer different things to different people, which is fair enough. As I understand it the 'black and minority ethnic' soc has pretty similar issues, of obvious reasons.

I think it's completely sensible and understandable that societies change as people change. I didn't know one openly trans, nonbinary or genderqueer student when I was an undergrad. I know loads now.

But what's worrying is that I think it's hard for women to explore what their sexuality even means. There should be space for that too.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

That sounds perfectly reasonable to be, batteries.

And, for a bit of what-about-ery, it potentially comes from the other side of the debate too. When LGBTSoc is one 'place', people who are getting to uni quite sure that they identify as the other gender, and could end up feeling pressurised into same sex relationships because (in different ways - no surgery or hormones for a start) it is easier for them.
That's the problem with putting people with such different needs in the same 'box'

[Batteriesallgone]

Yes LRD I think that too but without sounding dismissive of the specific needs of lesbian and bisexual women, I think all women would benefit from being able to join a society that explores specifically female sexuality. That's why I think 'women's societies' are the way forward.

Many many women now believe that sexuality = availability and that is the pervasive message of our society. I think it must be so difficult for a young woman nowadays to identify as lesbian because first she has to accept that she is in charge of her body and sexuality and only then can she decide that she is sexually attracted to women. Agree with the previous poster about male-orientated lesbian porn that equates lesbian with availability (and with retaining all the 'for men' markers of attractiveness).

Basically I think there is a wider fight in educating all women that their sexuality does not equate to being a receptacle for a penis. I'm not very up to date with the hate speech of Ada but the whole women need to be raped thing is tired and grossly familiar now.

Hopefully the needs of lesbian women could sit safely within that wider space.

[KiranMumsnet]

Morning all,

We know it's frustrating when a thread takes a direction that you didn't anticipate or want. But we feel as moderators, it's not our place to control conversation as explicitly as saying people can't discuss certain issues on threads.

We know we're a broken record - but we do feel the best way to allow everyone to have their say is to allow free-flowing conversation, and to make sure that everyone sticks within the talk guidelines, so threads don't descend into nastiness.

For those interested, we have commented more generally about moderation on transgenderism on another thread here.

[MaudGonneMad]

But we feel as moderators, it's not our place to control conversation as explicitly as saying people can't discuss certain issues on threads.

Isn't this what your deletion message states?

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I've not seen you around before kiran, now twice in one day! Are you following me?

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

kiran, thanks for replying - but is there any chance at all you could reply to my OP, or any of the other points made?

You've just done exactly the same thing here that I found so frustrating on the original thread - you've come in, and told us we can all talk about trans issues.

I know we can do that. I can see we can.

But can we talk about anything else, without it being shut down or deleted?

Did you realise that the thread where you instructed us to go away and talk more about pronouns, was not originally about pronouns?

[BertrandRussell]

"But we feel as moderators, it's not our place to control conversation as explicitly as saying people can't discuss certain issues on threads."

But isn't that exactly what you're doing?

[IfTheCapFitsWearIt]

Rightyho kiran

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

I'm gonna c&p batteries post from above Kieran's contribution cause it needs resaying :)

...

Yes LRD I think that too but without sounding dismissive of the specific needs of lesbian and bisexual women, I think all women would benefit from being able to join a society that explores specifically female sexuality. That's why I think 'women's societies' are the way forward.

Many many women now believe that sexuality = availability and that is the pervasive message of our society. I think it must be so difficult for a young woman nowadays to identify as lesbian because first she has to accept that she is in charge of her body and sexuality and only then can she decide that she is sexually attracted to women. Agree with the previous poster about male-orientated lesbian porn that equates lesbian with availability (and with retaining all the 'for men' markers of attractiveness).

Basically I think there is a wider fight in educating all women that their sexuality does not equate to being a receptacle for a penis. I'm not very up to date with the hate speech of Ada but the whole women need to be raped thing is tired and grossly familiar now.

Hopefully the needs of lesbian women could sit safely within that wider space.

[MaudGonneMad]

Poor old Kiran clearly drew the short straw, and has had to post essentially the same bland single transferable MNHQ 'response' on all the threads addressing this issue this morning.

Doesn't really seem like it matters what the thread is actually about.

[BeyondLovesSweetDee]

Sorry - Kiran (autocorrect)

[NauticalDisaster]

MNHQ that was an overtly simplistic answer to a complex issue, and a response that didn't actually address the OP.

Can you please try and and engage on this issue? How about a closed discussion group like you've done for sponsors? About a webchat?

[OlennasWimple]

I don't think that MNHQ has the competence to deal with a contentious, fast-moving and emotive issue like this, TBH. We've seen that time and again with the deletion messages, banning decisions - heck, I'm still waiting for a proper reply to my request from weeks ago that we ban the term "cis" from MNHQ as it is so offensive to so many posters. I'm not saying that in a sneery way - I don't know of another online forum who is doing a better job of moderating on this issue - just a statement of fact, but one that means that when threads get a bit wobbly MNHQ isn't well-placed to carefully steer it back on course in the same way that I have seen on other issues.