Thinking about doing Maths A level, but not Further Maths - disadvantaged?

[amidaiwas]

Helping dd with her A level choices.
She's thinking of maths but definitely not Further Maths. Surely all the A/A* grades in maths are swooped up by those dedicated mathematicians doing both?

Thoughts?

I would not recommend anyone to do further maths unless they need it for uni.

I wouldn't recommend it to anyone who didn't find maths fun - but if you have the ability and really enjoy it then why the heck wouldn't you! Either as the 3rd subject for the likes of maths, physics, engineering, comp sci or as a 4th subject.

Same could be said of any subject, I suppose, but FM is somewhat different in being 'further' to another subject.

I would think of it as a package of subjects, I wouldn't do Maths and Englsh at A-level.

Work out what she is best at and do the comlimentary subjects

I did Maths, English and French - big mistake, none compliments any of the others and just because I did well at GCSE didn't make it a strength at A-level. My Strength was in Maths and I should have done Maths, Further Maths, Economics
OR Maths, Stats and Psychology

My DD did maths, history, sociology and general studies for the 1st year of a levels, got her sociology in that year, then dropped gen studies in year 2 and took up further maths. Ended up with a levels in sociology, history, maths and further maths BBA*A

Dd hasn't done fm but has an offer for a top engineering degree (ask me in August if she gets the a shes predicted!)

Because of problems offering double maths, it is technically possible to get onto most courses without FM.

HOWEVER...if the course says FM is desirable, you really should do it if you can. The advice DS was given was that it was easier to extend your maths in a school classroom than at University. He felt this was correct. Though students without further maths managed (LSE economics) they apparently covered half the content of one FM paper in a single lecture. There is enough going on in your first term at University without having to play catch up with your peers.

That said, the other advice DS was given was not to take maths or FM unless it came fairly easily. Maths A level without the necessary aptitude is a slog.

I am surprised that the poster upthread did not consider maths necessary for social sciences. Double maths gives you a significant advantage with the the more competitive economics courses, and relatively few courses will take you without single maths. Even Oxford PPE is now apparently surprisingly mathematical. Other social science degrees, especially those which require an ability to understand statistics, will like to see a good maths A level. And a maths A level will do no harm for humanities students then looking for careers in commercial law or accountancy and finance. There was even quite a lot of maths in DDs first year of medicine. She had not taken FM but her A level was OCR MEI (whatever that is) and she was often the only one to have covered material before.

Echoing what Errol said. Good mathematicians often find FM more "fun" than other schools maths. Perhaps because they enjoy being stretched.

Thanks for all your responses, definitely food for thought.

By the way she doesn't particularly want a job in financial services - my point was that lots of the generalist well paid jobs in London are in financial services and whilst Maths A level may not be a requirement, they definitely like it.

interesting what you say ticking about a package of subjects, I've heard that before.
Maths, FM, Physics
Biology, Chemistry, Maths
English, History, Classics
Geography, Economics, Maths
etc

Def food for thought for the summer break, hoping for some good advice from school in the autumn!

Some of those 'packages' are ideal if they have a clear idea what uni course they want to do, But they won't suit everyone,
One of DDs friends did maths, fm physics and French - always intended doing maths so the French might have sounded a bit random. But a year into a maths degree she decided it wasn't for her after all and was able to swap to a language degree.

Even if she starts with 4 A levels, don't be surprised if she drops down to 3 within her first term. My DD attends a very high performing sixth form. They are encouraged to take 3 A levels and an EPQ or 4 including FM. Very few take 4 otherwise as the general rule is to focus on quality not quantity now.

Oops, I forgot to add that DD is taking maths, history and English Language. This combination is certainly not giving any cause for concern in applying for PPE and similar courses at top universities.

There is something to be said about thinking about the whole package. I did 4 - 3 arts subjects that went well together and then I did a science on top. It was a really hard slog as I didn’t have another science or maths to help and ended up with lots of exam clashes as I did a wierd combo.

I wouldn't have though maths (single) with anything would be considered weird, as aspects of it are so widely useful especially statistics. Or a language for that matter - there are quite a lot of degrees where there's some sorts of language options from basic up to the year abroad type of thing.

One science without maths seems a bit neither here nor there to me tbh - not enough to get on a lot of good science degrees, 'numerate' but not so much as maths ... Not a problem as such just doesn't necessarily hold extra doors open as well as some might think maybe?

ErrolTheDragon I completely agree. I think maths would have been a good extra instead of one science for me. It was nice to have the breadth but was essentially useless in terms of keeping options open. I still think students will have an easier time doing 3 essay subjects or 3 sciences/maths.

I still think students will have an easier time doing 3 essay subjects or 3 sciences/maths.

But a mix confirms to future employers that you are both numerate and literate. There is something very odd about the English system that allows academic kids to drop English or maths or both at 16.

back in the 90s I chose A levels based on my favourite subjects "Biology & Geography"
and a language because i thought that was a good idea and at GCSE i was good at languages.

then at UCAS time... looking at top unis
language degrees wanted 2 languages at A level and Latin GCSE (not offered) was desirable.
Biology degrees wanted Chemistry.

trying to avoid history repeating itself!

language degrees wanted 2 languages at A level and Latin GCSE (not offered) was desirable.

With the decline in the number of language A levels I'm not sure that would be so much the case now - there are certainly some (like the Cambridge MML) where only one language at a Level is required, the second can be learned ab initio. Maybe the chance of getting offers are better if you've got more of the relevant subjects, but there can be a difference between 'desirable' and absolutely deal-breakingly required, iyswim.

Numbersaremything my daughter's looking at English/History/Maths for A levels too. I'm hoping she'll keep maths on her list though I know she's getting niggles about Geography and German ...

She'd be perfectly capable of further maths - but although good at maths she doesn't love it instinctively, it would be a much harder slog than necessary. I do believe it will be useful to her whatever she ends up doing.

Where I went to uni (overseas), we had generic arts and science degrees with a modular structure. You could fit a small amount of arts into science or vice versa if you really wanted to. Mathematics was the one subject that could be pursued fully in either degree.

I'm currently tutoring a friend's son 1 year into A level maths, off a GCSE 7 I think. At the beginning of the year we worked on fluency in algebra and looked for any gaps to plug. After about a term he seemed to be keeping up with his class much more confidently. While there are concepts and techniques to master in maths I would still say that the thing that makes the difference is fluent and accurate algebra. Good habits of writing down your working will make it easier, gain you marks and to be honest solve problems for you.

One of mine just sat Maths A level and is predicted A*, and doesn’t do FM.

They are top in their set, buy It is trues that many of the Maths students he considers better than him are in the set who are also doing FM. That’s because they include the keen maths geniuses . So it is likely that a higher proportion of Maths candidates also doing FM get A*, but it doesn’t affect the chances of those only doing maths.

But a mix confirms to future employers that you are both numerate and literate.

I agree with this. I'd also add a foreign language to this. Most European countries require their students to include Maths, a Science as well as two languages for their school leaving exam (eg Abitur, Bac etc)

My dc is currently doing 4 A levels in Chemistry, Maths, Music and French. Yes, it's a step up from GCSEs but she's managing fine.

My DS did maths A level along with the sciences (didn't offer further maths at his school) and got A*. Why would they be swooped up by the further maths students? They are still taught everything they need to know for the maths A level.

A thread about maths should have some statistics

Percentage of candidates gaining grade %gaining Number
grades graded
A* A B C D E N U A - E

Maths
2018 15.9 26.3 22.6 16.0 10.0. 5.5 3.7 96.3 97627
Maths Further
2018 28.8 29.0 19.2 11.0 6.3 3.3 2.4 97.6 16157

From http://www.bstubbs.co.uk/a-lev.htm

And only 16.5% of those doing maths are also doing further maths.
~ 42% of single maths students get Astars or As - 41,198

If we assume that the students who do FM and her Astar, A or B will get Astars and As in the single (this assumption isn't necessarily valid but seems like a fair guess) that's 12,440. Which leaves 28,757 single maths students getting Astars and As which is 29.5%

If you look at the link, other subjects don't have so many A star and A grades awarded.
E.g physics, which is probably the most directly comparable subject.
2018 9.4 20.2 20.7 19.8 16.0 9.7 4.2 95.8 37806

...29.6% A stars and As.

You might want to get your kids to check my sums, it's been a long day...

The numbers of top grades are, it appears, weighted to account for the fact that FM is largely a self-selecting group of exceptionally bright students who also of necessity do single maths.

The formatting of the column may have gone a bit awry there, sorry.

I'll add a voice to those saying don't just to a 'package' of similar subjects, mix things up a bit. Having both 'writing' subjects and 'numeracy' is very good. For example, my sister did 3 arts subjects + maths and went on to Classics at Oxford. All the other people studying classics in her college also had maths A level, so it seems the tutors like it.

DD did her A levels last year, so the 2018 cohort mentioned above.

She is now studying Classics and did Maths, History and English Literature.

She also did FM to AS level. Because her cohort was the old style exam, units could be moved about so you got the best possible Maths A level. This actually helped DD as an FM module was one of her best. Obviously this doesn't apply now, but explains some of the old A grades where Maths and Further Maths were both taken.

DS2 is currently choosing A levels and is choosing the school offering FM, he is doing it as a 4th and can drop to AS if he wants to. He's doing Physics and Maths though.

Sorry to ask a dim question, but DS is yr10, so starting to think about A-levels. He's keen on maths, but says his teacher told him and a few others that they should consider Further Maths. He thinks that means he wouldn't have to do maths as well. I am guessing he's misunderstood the teacher, but am I right? Surely you need what's covered in the Maths A-level to do Further Maths?